Committing into the turn drills on Harb Carvers

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Committing into the turn drills on Harb Carvers

Postby piggyslayer » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:03 pm

Harald wrote:
As in skiing, during transition, your center of gravity (body) has to move across to the downhill side of the skis for a "high C" turn. This has to be initiated by feet tipping actions. If this isn't done on the carvers they will feel like they don't want to turn.

SkierSynergy has also posted that to be one of the critical factors in turning the Carvers.
It took me quite some time to get it. Until then my turns where shallow, and long radius.

My wife is skating on Pros. She is doing great job on flat or almost flat parking lots. She is doing beautiful textbook LTE tipping, keeps nice narrow stance and develops good edge (or rather wheel) angles. She is demonstrating her best tipping action ever (... in short I am falling in love all over again). But moving CM into the turn is something which does not come easy to her.
All of the tipping ends up being countered by upper body and the CM stays somewhere above the stance foot BTE .
As result she can make only shallow long radius turns. I think, what is preventing her from committing into the turn is all headology. It is scary at the beginning to trust the skates and commit to what seems like unavoidable face plant.

The two best drills for committing into the turn on skis that I know of are:
1. Von Grunigen turn
2. Stepping turns (initiated with new inside leg and done with aggressive committing of CM into the next turn).

Well, if you can do Von Grunigen type turns on Harb Carvers, you can do sharp short radius turns as well. I am looking for simpler drills. Stepping turns are a great way, but it seems like we need to find a different angle. If anyone knows of any good drill I will very much appreciate a post.

On more advanced level, what is the best way to master one legged turns?
Seems like on one leg I am back in square one. I make turns the size of small parking lot! I am riding clearly on one edge of wheels with angle developed, but what is missing is the commitment of CM (well for some headological reason it is more scary for me to commit with one leg than with both legs). Is there any progression drill for one legged skiing?

Here is what I tried so far (and this helped a bit).
I try to play with learning Von Grunigen turn on Carvers. I finish the turn with all weight on outside leg lifting the inside leg a bit, I transfer the edges on the stance leg to the LTE edge. At this moment my turn is shallow and there is very little or no commitment.
I commit only after both feet are on the ground. I intend to commit more and more when standing on transition stance leg, creating a progression which hopefully will teach me to commit with one legged turns.

Please let me know if you know a drill that can help.
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Postby BigE » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:34 am

First off -- are you using poles? It helps alot -- way more than you may think.

IMO the best way to get it is to go back to the inlines, and do some serious turns with legs way outside of the body, and body quiet... feet close together. Chances are, you will hear a scrubbing sound when you first get it... Try to get that sound to go away. Developing a rhythm helps.

If you can't do that, then again with inlines, learn to turn using a cross-over -- reach across the inside skate with the outside while turning. Think of speed skaters in a corner, where they reach across and push off the outside edge of the old inside skate....The body MUST be inside. Once you can do this, then slaloming is not a big jump.

If that's too hard, then try a simple arc, one foot infront of the other, say left leading, and bank left. You should be able to turn completely around. Same with right side. Then pull the foot back to slalom. Then get thee to the carvers, and a reasonably steep hill.

You may be attempting to create large edge angles where you normally do not, and at speeds far slower than you need to make those angles. The slower you go, the harder these "tricks" are to do. Find a hill with some *reasonable* slope. Don't go nuts. And for sure, use poles.

Hope this helps!
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:54 pm

Thanks BigE,
Great suggestions.
Yes we are using poles, I have very strong opinion about using poles, even wrote a post about it some time ago.
Cross-over is a great way to skate on inlines. My wife does it all the time when she skates on inlines, it is just more fun to skate.
For some reason, it became a distinction for her whether she is stroking using her own force (not scary) or turning downhill using gravity or previously gained speed (scary). I think this is a headology stuff and we are looking for gentle way to add commitment to her otherwise very good turns.
I sort of understand what she is going through, I was a bit uneasy and not-trusting for first 6-7 hours of skating or maybe even more and I did inline skate on hills before. I wish she started with me in spring, these are her first days.

The latest talk in out house is that "centrifugal force" is a fake or at least does not act on everybody. Just in case she is right, I am going to waive my hand each time at the top of the hill so the physics around me will notice my presence. :)
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Postby BigE » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:32 pm

piggyslayer wrote:Cross-over is a great way to skate on inlines. My wife does it all the time when she skates on inlines, it is just more fun to skate.
For some reason, it became a distinction for her whether she is stroking using her own force (not scary) or turning downhill using gravity or previously gained speed (scary). I think this is a headology stuff and we are looking for gentle way to add commitment to her otherwise very good turns.

The latest talk in out house is that "centrifugal force" is a fake or at least does not act on everybody. Just in case she is right, I am going to waive my hand each time at the top of the hill so the physics around me will notice my presence. :)


Hopefully, she is crossing over with FULL extension of the leg that got crossed over -- the leg that is now on the outside edge gets fully extended, and she can really push off it.... not just a step over. You end up in a crouch, just like a speed skater.

Can she mimick slalom on inlines on the flats? The real faith issue is that the skates will turn back under you.

Cheers!
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:00 pm

BigE,
Thanks, the crossover with full commitment and leg extension on inlines sounds like a great idea and we will try it out.

She has done slalom like turn on flats and small hills on inlines (even on one leg). I think we are making good progress. The obvious way to improve is to keep skating. From time to time she is getting a nice sharper turn which tell me she is committing more and more.

Do you use Harb Carvers? How do you like them?
Don't you think that the experience is way different than skates, and after initial time of getting to know them they feel so much like skis!
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Postby BigE » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:02 am

piggyslayer wrote:She has done slalom like turn on flats and small hills on inlines (even on one leg). I think we are making good progress. The obvious way to improve is to keep skating. From time to time she is getting a nice sharper turn which tell me she is committing more and more.


Excellent! HH website suggests that once you can do speed control on hills using slalom, you are ready for the middle one.

piggyslayer wrote:Do you use Harb Carvers? How do you like them?
Don't you think that the experience is way different than skates, and after initial time of getting to know them they feel so much like skis!


I could not afford the real McCoy so I DIYed. I will be making several improvements -- I'm on version 4, working towards version 5. Given the amount of effort, it is much smarter to buy the carvers. There is no way I would do this again, but it is a great learning experience from a design perspective. It has taken far more time than I would ever have expected... it's real work.

I still have no brakes, and my version is a touch too tall -- I stand over 4" above the ground. Commitment is very required. Since my wheel durometer is 85, truly non-skidded SR turns are very hard. (Being very heavy, I went for "stiff" wheels -- oops.) On a paved country road, my wife and kids were following me in the car, and said that it looked *exactly* like skiing. I've managed to find a nice short hill near home, on which I was practicing.

Skates do not compare. But they are not exactly skiis either -- the missing tip and tail means theres no shovel to dig in and no tail to launch from. It's slightly different.
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Postby piggyslayer » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:26 am

I could not afford the real McCoy so I DIYed. I will be making several improvements -- I'm on version 4, working towards version 5. Given the amount of effort, it is much smarter to buy the carvers. There is no way I would do this again, but it is a great learning experience from a design perspective. It has taken far more time than I would ever have expected... it's real work.

That is amazing and great! I had a long term plan to prototype my own pair as a way of experimenting with different designs and see how they will turn.
For now, I decided against it (lack of time) and since I do not envision my time tables changing in the future I will probably never end up doing it.

Did you use 1 wheel in front and 2 in the back the way Harald's are setup? I believe this makes them behave similarly to skis when you make fore aft movements (aft ride on 2 large wheels and move fast, fore ride on one wheel, make it guide the turn) as well as it improves turning.
I would also try softer wheel in front and harder in the back just to see what happens.

Way cool!!
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Postby BigE » Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:37 am

Yes, two in the back, and one in the front. I fear softer in the front will make skating an issue -- the front wheel will wear prematurely.

Version 1 was really silly, it was built using 4x4 lumber. The two important things were that I developed a binding that would stand up to my weight, and that the width was a real issue -- you think *you* have to commit to a turn? Ha! Also finding axles that didn't bend was very important.

IMO, the width the wheels are apart is crucial.

I have some real ideas on making changes that I strongly believe will make radical differences in their behaviour, hopefully making them feel even more like skis.

Basically, I like to tinker -- unfortunately time is a real issue. I actually had to use vacation days to work on them. This project was one of those were I'd say "Hey! I can do that!" but then ususally never get around to doing anything about it.... So, for a change, I dug in and did it.
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One Footed Weighted Release

Postby SkierSynergy » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:11 pm

I have had conversations with several Carver users I know about this topic. They have all wanted to get the CM committed earlier and to a greater extent in the early part of the turn.

Some people want to ?project? the CM into the turn more or get the ?feet out? more. Honestly, I think that some of these people are concerneed about this a little too much. However, that is another topic. Maybe I?ll try to say something another time about why. I think that more important than moving the CM is how it is done. Here is a great exercise that we all know from skiing that will teach CONTROL of CM movement.

A very good exercise on the Carvers is the one footed weighted release. Use a very long turn on gentle terrain. Drag your poles for additional balance if needed. Once you can do a balanced, steady, and controlled turn on the outside edge, try modulating the foot from edged to flat and back. Vary the quickness and pattern with which you flatten and edge the foot. Make sure that the action is started in the foot. Place the raised foot next to the leg of the foot on the ground. Inside the boot in the air, use your foot to mirror the movements of the foot on the ground.

Give it a try.

Of course you can also do the same exercise with a turn to the inside edge.

This is a great lead up to either one footed Carving or to a two footed weighted release.
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Postby piggyslayer » Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:30 am

Jay

Lots of thanks, I will, for sure, try this and it will be good progression for my wife once she gets more experienced.
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Postby BigE » Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:45 am

Had a huge breakthrough last night. Was using inlines, which I can get really far outside, for a bunch of runs down the laneway. The lane is nearly flat and concrete -- not asphalt. So deep SR turns here is identical to deep SR turns on a cat-track. I have to skate to get up enough speed to turn on either equipment.

Switched to the DIYs, and immediately could get them just as far out!
Really short radius turns, on 76 mm/85 durometer wheels, 4" stand height. The concentration was not on what the CM was doing but on reaching with the legs. This has to be refined obviously, and the movement pattern studied.

It was certainly a cross-under move. There was far less noise from these than from the inlines. It was less forced than on my inlines -- my inlines have NO rocker, nor do my DIY's -- All wheels touch the ground at the same time...

Slayer: Rocker may be an issue with the difference between your wife's inlines and the carvers. If the inlines are rockered, they will enforce a different movement pattern than the carvers. Neither my inlines nor my DIYs are rockered.
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Postby piggyslayer » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:20 am

Slayer: Rocker may be an issue with the difference between your wife's inlines and the carvers. If the inlines are rockered, they will enforce a different movement pattern than the carvers. Neither my inlines nor my DIYs are rockered.


Neither are ours.
Thanks for checking and congrats on improvements. I simply amazes me that we can be improving our skiing all year long.

The concentration was not on what the CM was doing but on reaching with the legs.


Here are my notes from teh field:
For me the key to really sharp turns was to get acquainted with carvers so I can trust them do what my skis typically do. I simply do not fight CM moving down the fall line when carvers roll perpendicular to fall line. There is not much I need to do, simply let things happen.
If anything that would be a cross under for me this is a sensation of perpendicular directions of motion (my body down and carvers and legs to the side) -- very enjoyable and even stronger than on skis.

Focusing on the sensation of CM and leg crossing each other perpendicularly is also improving my one legged skating drill.
This sensation is strong when skiing Von Grunigen drill, if you are familiar with it you will know what I mean, but also maybe part of your regular skiing.

As pointed by Jeff Markham in private conversation, flexing legs to release really helps in that respect as well (sure it must) and is one of the keys to success.

Cheers!
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