Harb Carving is a lot like Snowboarding

PMTS Forum

Postby piggyslayer » Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:42 am

... and sorry for criticizing epic discussion on a totally not relevant thread and on this - which is non epic forum. I guess this was not fair to folks on epic no matter how biased or unbiased is their discussion...
Last edited by piggyslayer on Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paralell Skiing with the feet DOES imply LTE first

Postby SkierSynergy » Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:11 pm

suebrown wrote:Piggy, I think you have two concepts muddled in your mind. You seem to be equating "skiing with your feet" with "leading with the LTE." In fact, these are two different things. The idea that all movements should originitate in the feet is straight out of the PSIA (and PMTS) literature. But concentrating on tipping the new inside ski to its LTE and letting the other foot/leg follow doesn't necessarily follow from that. The former does not necessitate the latter.


I hope Sue doesn?t mind me commenting on this. Sue is correct that "skiing with the feet" and "LTE first" are two different things. However, if one considers the physiology and kinesiology involved, true PARALLEL skiing with the feet DOES imply leading with the little toe edge first. Consider the point of release into a new turn. The upper leg of the new stance ski will rotate inwardly much easier and to a greater extent than the new free-foot leg can rotate outwardly toward the little toe edge.

In practical terms, this will mean that if you concentrate on moving the edge simultaneously with both feet. The new stance ski leg will heavily tend to overreach and overpower the new free-foot leg. What results is a wedge entry in which the new stance-foot reaches an edge before the old stance ski has released. Wedge entries ? even if very slight are qualitatively different then true parallel skiing. We are now down an entirely different causal chain of events and a whole ?nother? set of negative consequences. There are lots of negative consequences anyone could pick to talk about. I will choose an especially bad one.

If one tends to get onto the new stance-ski edge first, there will be the tendency to move the stance wider because the new stance knee will run into, and get blocked by, the new free-foot knee. Most people accommodate this problem by moving into a wider stance ? either all the time or just at entry. Now we have a real negative cycle: the wider stance encourages an emphasis on the stance ski rolling first and the faster rolling of the new stance ski encourages a wider stance.

Ahhhhhhh!!!! How do we get out of this negative loop? Answer: don?t get it started. Break the loop by starting with the new free-foot inverting toward the little toe edge FIRST.

I have noted that one thing that distinguishes PMTS from other models of skiing is its emphasis on proper SEQUENCING of movements rather than proper TIMING of maneuvers. This is a good example of the emphasis on sequence. It seems small, but it?s all the difference.

The concentration should be on a proper sequence of movements starting with actively inverting the foot toward the little toe edge FIRST and then letting the stance leg passively match the angle of the new free foot. If you take into consideration the physiology and kinesiology involved, Parallel skiing with the feet does imply LTE first.

For those of you who, like references, see the section in Anyone Can be an Expert Skier 2: Debunking the myth of simultaneous edge change (p.50). As an alternatve, look at the Wedge-Blocker documents in the library of RealSkiers.com.
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Postby piggyslayer » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:53 am

I hope many people read SkierSynergy post and have done it more than once. This was really good. My post want be as good but I want to continue this great thread rolling (to LTE obviously); so here it is.

LTE is part of DNA (comes natural) for some skiers and is not so for others.
Slight bow legged stance or forefoot valgus are better than knock kneed stance or fore foot varus in this respect. I think/hope that after years of PMTS practice LTE will become automatic for all skiers.

I would like to propose and experiment for all knock kneed people or for people with tendency of knee tracking inside when flexing (like me with varus forefoot), or for all which are not sure. People with natural stance should see the same effect as well, but much less visible. Get a pair of Harb Carvers (quite possibly a pair of inline skates will do as well) and make some turns focusing on rolling from edge to edge to change direction. Do not think of LTE tipping, rather try to roll both legs equally.
Make a video of your attempts and watch it in very slow motion (especially very high C part of each turn). <I wish we had a web server to post such attempts>
? I bet that what you will see (to your surprise, because you may not feel it when skating) is your feet separating and a little A-frame forming - quite possibly for a short moment only- in the top C,
? BTE getting much bigger angle than LTE,
? quite possibly, the inside foot moving into a lead as if follows more shallow arc.

Inline skates and Harb Carver roll (keeping edge hold is easy), skis have a tendency to skid (keeping edge hold is an art) so what is most likely to happen on your skis is that you will skid a little in the very top C part of the turn. The BTE will not grip yet and the ski will ?push out? a bit, since the inside leg remains unweighted you may even not see any foot separation or A-frame as the inside leg will simply move up to stay close to stance leg. You may even be not aware about this skid (good luck in spotting it on a video unless you are HH, Diana, or Rich or some as experienced as them).
What you will notice maybe is that you have some trouble on ice and do not know why that is.

So that is the solution? Simply do not rely on what you think is an even roll from edge to edge. Start is with LTE first ALWAYS. Now repeat the experiments on inline skates or Harb Carvers. The problem disappears! Hey, thank Harald for creating PMTS.

If BigE is reading it, I would love your comments since I know you are from the other group (LTE build into DNA type).
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Postby piggyslayer » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:35 pm

I read my previous post again and it is not very good or inventive.
Let me try again.
I guess what I want to say it that LTE is the hardest to accomplish for people with knock kneed tendencies or forefoot varus type conditions (like myself).
Alignment goes only so far and the rest is dedication and practice.
At the same time LTE tipping will make the biggest difference in skiing for such people (like myself).

To ski with feet and LTE requires foot and edge awareness. Many skiers (especially skiers bounded by the above conditions -- I know, I am one) have difficulty feeling with feet. I am not saying anything new here, Harald books talk about it.

Harb Carvers are invaluable tool for all skiers, but for skiers "LTE tipping challenged" :) they are more then a great tool, they, I feel, are the treatment.
I learned to ski with large leg and upper body muscles, I got comparatively decent results with it. But the more I learn PTMS the more I know how much I was missing.
Harb Carvers magnify foot sensations, such as edge sensation. I feel like a blind person who finally started to see.

If you are like I was with so so or not so so foot/edge awareness GET HARB CARVERS.
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Postby BigE » Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:43 am

piggyslayer wrote:LTE is part of DNA (comes natural) for some skiers and is not so for others.
Slight bow legged stance or forefoot valgus are better than knock kneed stance or fore foot varus in this respect. I think/hope that after years of PMTS practice LTE will become automatic for all skiers.

....

If BigE is reading it, I would love your comments since I know you are from the other group (LTE build into DNA type).


Don't make the mistake and think that if LTE "comes natural" for bow-legged people it's a good thing. Sure, if I am not aligned, BOTH my LTEs touch the snow first. Does this make LTE tipping easier? Can't say: I've no reference. Anyway, it does NOT make for better skiing.

The problem resides in the inability for BTE to engage, while having the body aligned in it's natural position above the skis. Gross amounts of either angulation or inclination are needed for the bowlegged to get the BTE to engage.

Worse yet, since the body realizes that the LTE of the inside ski actually has better grip, it prefers to balance on the inside leg. Afterall, why would it want to use the outside edge? That one is skidding! On top of that, the body expects the outside of the foot to touch first! It's very used to it.

Alignment seems to have pros and cons. To me, there was an overall benefit, but the fitter did not go all the way - he felt that 4 degrees was simply too much -- I'm still two degrees outside, and that may be a problem... I'll be revisiting that this year. That may or may not change, depending. I'd love to get to zero and still be able to ski!

Anyway, after *partial* canting, LTE loading and preference is still present -- even with skis flat to the snow. I can detect not being flat by 1/2 degree easily. Bottom line: I still have to angulate or inclinate more to engage the BTE of the stance leg than the knock kneed skier.
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Difference between movement and the alignment issues

Postby SkierSynergy » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:00 pm

I think Piggyslayer is right to point out the trade offs of various alignments. I will add a few more distinctions.

For example, take inversion -- the main starting point for releasing the old stance foot during transition.

1. The movement
This is where learning and practice have an affect. Some people may not be able to invert simply because they don't know how. They haven't learned the movement inside the boot of rolling your foot laterally toward the little toe edge while lifting the arch upward. A lot of people are just used to edging the outside of the ski through upper leg muscles and inclination.

2. Limiting factors on the ability to do a movement
This is how easily, or the extent to which, one can do the movement. Even if a person can do the correct movement, their ability to do it easily, or to the extent they wish, may be limited by either physiology or equipment. If a person has limited range of ankle motion for inversion then it will be pretty hard to invert even if they know what to do. Similarly, if a person has badly designed or badly fitting boots, then it can be hard to get enough ankle articulation to invert the foot for release. Either will limit the effect of a correct movement.

3. Alignment
This predisposes a starting and/or end point in the movement along with effects on balance. Given the same movement ability and set of limiting factors. A person with a bowlegged alignment will be able to release more easily because they begin the movement already in a release positiion, but as Piggyslayer points out they wil have a harder time engaging. They will also have some additional effects on balance (especially LTE balance).

I break it down like this because it's important to parcel out the cause of a problem when you see/feel it.

Some issues can be helped on the movement level, but at some point, problems with limiting factors or alignment just inhibit the movement and no amount of instruction can help. I know this well myself. I struggled with a tendency to skid at the end of my left turns. Improving my technique certainly helped, but a good footbed and a 2 deg cant on the sole of my boot instantly improved my skiing beyond what a year of coaching could have.
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Postby BigE » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:01 am

I can't say that release using the movement is easier for the bowlegged. The natural release mechanism is to allow the knee to move out. It is fighting this tendency that makes rolling the foot to LTE difficult. Afterall, if the body is already aligned so as LTE is pre-tipped all one has to do is to adopt their natural stance.

This is for sure NOT what the tipping movement is supposed to do. The bowlegged individual senses NO tipping in their natural stance. What is sensed is a feeling of relief from moving the stance knee so far inside to get a decent edge against that natural tendency for the knees to remain outside.

The tipping has to occur from a neutral position to be effective. IMO, nothing works well without first being aligned. Without alignment:

1) tipping onto LTE while keeping the knee inside asks the bowlegged to work against their bodies natural tendencies

2) the edge angles so induced are nowhere near identical -- the inside edge has a far greater angle.

3) the pressure of BTE from the stance leg on the medial compartment can really hurt your knees.

Note that alignment will move the knee inside and will NOT feel natural to the bowlegged skier. It will take awhile to get used to the new position -- but it will give the skier a mechanical advantage and assist in working against their bodies desire to keep the legs bowed.
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:10 am

On the alignment issue? I remember Harald saying more than once that it is not possible to perform good alignment based on only static measurements performed indoors. You have to see the alignment in action and make fine tuning based on it (that is probably the main reason for the moving carpet thing in some alignment places).

Based on my experience and on what BigE is saying, I think that maybe for some people at some point of their skiing progression it may be a good idea to try to get over-aligned to accommodate for habits formed over the years of being knock kneed or bow legged, etc. For example, 1 deg to outside for knock kneed, classic 1 deg inside for bow legged skier. I think such over-alignment should be more of a temporary measure.

I sense that everybody is different and for some people more conservative approach may work best. I am not an expert, just a recreational enthusiast so please do not blame piggyslayer if you mess up your footbeds by ?correcting? them at home.
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Postby BigE » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:22 am

piggyslayer wrote:Based on my experience and on what BigE is saying, I think that maybe for some people at some point of their skiing progression it may be a good idea to try to get over-aligned to accommodate for habits formed over the years of being knock kneed or bow legged, etc. For example, 1 deg to outside for knock kneed, classic 1 deg inside for bow legged skier. I think such over-alignment should be more of a temporary measure.


IMO, you'll be limitted by the flexibility of the muscles of the ankles, knees and hips, as well as skeletal geometry. Exactly what poor canting will teach you is beyond me.

Maybe sneaking up to full alignment could work, (I hope it does for me) but without miles and miles of experience, I suspect all surprises on the hill will be dealt with by more natural and inefficient movements.

Alignment is not a silver bullet -- it's something that can enable you to ski well by helping you change your natural dis-position. If your natural alignment is not too flawed, then the new position can be easily incorporated into the bodies natural movement pattens. Otherwise, you will need to spend LOTS of time in those new boots!

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Alignment and process

Postby SkierSynergy » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:47 am

BigE, you made a few good comments on my last post and it makes me think of some important distinctions.

I can't say that release using the movement is easier for the bowlegged.


I think you are correct that being bowlegged won't make the movement (inversion) any easier.

I also appreciate you pointing out that releasing the old stance foot is not the biggest issue for someone with bowlegged alignment (I happen to be knock kneeed by the way).

Each alignment issue can affect the different parts of the RTE process differently. Further, each foot in the same stage of the process is affected diferently.

With Bow legged alignment, it's easy to release the old stance foot because, as you said, this person has a natural stance in which the old stance ski is already flat to the slope -- already released. However, the old free foot will not want to release because it's natural position at this point is toward it's LTE -- engaged.

On the other end of the turn, engaging the new stance foot is a big issue because its alignment tends to make it flat to the slope (say skid here) while the free foot is naturally tipped toward engagement -- which can also cause issues for LTE edge balance.

Think of the people who have different alignments on each foot! or throw in a little curve or twist in the tibia! Ahhhhhhh.

This brings up a few good questions for discussion.

In terms of both personal skiing and teaching, does a TRE versus a RTE sequence produce better results (or make it easier) for one alignment or the other.

Does one alignment or the other make it easier or better to use a weighted release? Any thoughts?
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:14 pm

BigE wrote
IMO, you'll be limited by the flexibility of the muscles of the ankles, knees and hips, as well as skeletal geometry.

Agreed, however (1) flexible as opposed to rigid footbeds help, (2) this assumes the correction is small relative to your movement range.
In my case: I am neither knock nor bow legged, however my forefoot is inverted (varus) by some 5 deg putting a 5 or 6 deg wedge under my forefoot does not limit the movement range.

SkierSynergy wrote
Does one alignment or the other make it easier or better to use a weighted release? Any thoughts?

I think that logically weighted release should be harder for knock kneed skiers since if you knock kneed it is hard to tip LTE if your weight is on the tipping leg. For some reason I do not have a problem with WR (on skis, on Carvers I do) but I think the most important element of weighted release is to be in the right place at the right time and this is somewhat independent of ability to TIP pressured foot.
Would that make sense?
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Postby Harald » Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:19 am

Lest we not forget that momentum and rebound (as we used to call it) makes all releases easier. If you have rebound from the previous turn, tipping of the skis and boots is less forceful, as they are light on the surface and the body is already moving toward the falline to help put the skis in position to be more easily tipped.. Energy from the last turn also helps move the body to the new turn with inclination and angulation. The principles surrounding the discussion about alignment still apply. The knocked kneed skier will have to emphasis little toe and inside leg tipping where the bowed leg skier will have to achieve more body inclination to bring the ski, boot and knee inline with the forces for the next turn. The bowed skier also engages later, and pressures later in the turn.
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