Help me understand the first PMTS lesson

PMTS Forum

Postby *SCSA » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:39 pm

Hi Sue,

To do a hockey stop, you just crank the LTE over. I've never tried it at higher speeds, but I do it @ slow speeds all the time. Like for example getting off of the chair. I rarely use a hockey stop -- I just crank the LTE way over.

Like I say, I've never tried it @ higher speeds. But now that you bring it up, I think that'll be one of the first things I do come snow time. I know SnoKarver does it all the time.
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Postby KISS patrol » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:29 am

suebrown wrote:KISS Patrol: Did you mean to say "transfer some weight to the new outside ski?"


No Sue, I did not mean outside ski. If you lift/lighten the new inside ski won't most weight be on the new outside ski anyway?

Gotta get at least some weight back on the new inside ski. The higher in the turn the better.
KISS patrol
 

Postby milesb » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:57 am

Missy Brown, it might help for you to think of it as depending on engaging the sidecut of the skis, while overpressuring the front of the skis so that the tails will wash out by the momentum of the body going downhill. You might move somewhat out of the fall line as soon as the sidecut engages, depending on how finely you control the edging and pressure. It is possible to do a "phantom wedlen" like this, though Harald might disappove of that :D.
But none of this really answers your initial question, does it! When Harald gets back, I'm sure he will have an answer for you. And you can also count on some "constructive criticism" from our beloved hecklers.
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Postby BigE » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:36 am

Here's a simple minded reason as to why rotation is the result of lifting the inside ski:

to stop you from falling. :shock:

If you lift one foot straight up, then to balance, you need to either move your body over the other foot OR if you don't want to move the upper body, you need to move the foot you're standing on. Since the foot won't move sideways, the best one can do is to get the knee under the center of mass. To do this, the femure must rotate, pointing the knee of the "stance leg" inwards.

If you quickly lift the "inside" leg on skis when in motion, without edging and weight off the tails, the ski will pivot rather quickly.... Whenver I think of this motion, I can't help but think of a chicken scratching in the barnyard...... :lol:

Cheers!
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Postby suebrown » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:23 pm

*SCSA wrote:Hi Sue,

To do a hockey stop, you just crank the LTE over. I've never tried it at higher speeds, but I do it @ slow speeds all the time. Like for example getting off of the chair. I rarely use a hockey stop -- I just crank the LTE way over.


Like I say, I've never tried it @ higher speeds. But now that you bring it up, I think that'll be one of the first things I do come snow time. I know SnoKarver does it all the time.


Hi SCSA,

You're saying you just edge more while you're in a turn? Won't that tighten the radius of the turn? How does that make you slide?

What I'm calling a hockey stop is really just a fast slide slip, where you progressively edge enough to make yourself stop. I think maybe we all have different definitions of hockey stop; that doesn't seem to jibe at all with what John said (You can just ride on your outside ski, purposely lift the tail of one ski, then purposely tip that ski to it's little toe edge while keeping the tip of that ski on the snow. This will spin you in place).
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Postby suebrown » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:24 pm

KISS patrol wrote:
suebrown wrote:KISS Patrol: Did you mean to say "transfer some weight to the new outside ski?"


No Sue, I did not mean outside ski. If you lift/lighten the new inside ski won't most weight be on the new outside ski anyway?

Gotta get at least some weight back on the new inside ski. The higher in the turn the better.


OK, sorry. I see what you're saying now. Somehow I thought you meant put all your weight on the inside ski. My bad. :)
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Postby suebrown » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:32 pm

BigE wrote:If you quickly lift the "inside" leg on skis when in motion, without edging and weight off the tails, the ski will pivot rather quickly.... Whenver I think of this motion, I can't help but think of a chicken scratching in the barnyard...... :lol:


So if I'm carving in a turn, and I lift up my inside ski, and make no movement to balance (i.e. more edging, or moving my upper body over my outside ski), my outside ski will pivot? Hmmm, I guess I've just never experienced this.
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Postby *SCSA » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:05 pm

Hiya Sue,

Well, I think I'm gettin in over my head now. :) I'm just a hack PMTS he/she/it. :lol:

But I tell you what. If you want to hook up at Vail or the Beav this year, I'd be happy to show you all I know and answer any questions I'm able to.

I think you're trying to make turns from your PC and it just can't be done. I think basic questions can be answered, but after that, time to go make turns.

Warning!
If you choose to make turns with me, you assume all risks of getting to know me. :P
*SCSA
 

nope - not quite

Postby John Mason » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 pm

If your outside ski is carving and you take that inside leg - and lift it and tip it - you will not pivot into any type of hockey stop.

SCSA is right - forums are not the best place for this. This little hockey stop generated by the phantom move that snocarver showed me was as I described except the stance foot is flat/near flat just as you would have it in a normal hockey stop. The surprising part for me was that by simply lifting that tail of the inside ski and tipping it creates quite a rotary effect in this configuration. I don't understand it but it does it. Easy to show, probably impossible to describe.

If your in a carve and do the same thing you'll just tighten your carve into a shorter radius turn.

One other note - of course this inside ski is to the LTE - but in the phantom move you are specifically tipping to the LTE more than the angle of the outside leg. Whenever you do this you shift the balance of the whole kenetic chain towards the inside of the turn, which increases the tipping of the outside leg without having to worry or think about tipping the outside leg. This also has the effect of pointing the knee inside the turn more. On none PMTS edging systems you'll see people say just point your knees inside the turn to edge. That actually works to, but you can end up wedling that way (which has it's own purpose). In a pmts turn, but focusing on the inside less weighted foot and tipping it and by doing that first, everything else happens when it's supposed to. You fall towards that side which at the same time edges your outside leg more. If you simply purposely edge the outside leg first by tipping it more instead of as a result in your body mass moving to the inside of the new turn, then your body is not in position to take the carving forces of the new turn. You'll be doing body catch up manuvers usually skidding.

Eric and Rob's book which you have describes and shows this very well. The simple action of tipping the inside foot towards the LTE shifts the balance of the body which results in the edging of the outside foot whilst the body is in the perfect position to balance those forces.

This doesn't mean there aren't a zillion ways to transition turns and maintain a carve from the top of the turn, just this is one of the most elegant, simple and effective ways. It's also a move - as Ott will tell you (no I'm not saying your as old as the hills, Ott - that has been around forever.)

So, paraphrasing the whole turn from old to new turn. I have to be careful here as on Epic many people call Eric and Rob's move a negative movement - but seen or properly described these same folks might even say - ah that's what you mean.

1. Your comming out of your turn approaching the fall line. Most people can carve the bottom of a turn. What most people can't do is carve the top of the turn after a smooth transition. So this little short story is about that transition and is the key about the phantom move or phantom edging or whatever your method/book/friends call it.

2. As you approach the fall line and you desire to change directions into the new turn (pole plants or not - body facing down the hill or not - these are secondary and helpful motions but the key is next) - you will find your weight is on the outside ski that soon will be the inside ski. If you remove your weight from that outside leg and tip it towards it's LTE you will have removed the support instantly from that turn and your body will continue it's momentum down the hill.

3. Now here is a piece that makes this move more effective and is a centerpiece in Eric and Rob's book on page 35. In HarAld's system (like that Ott :) ) It's called the super phantom. Many on Epic focus on this part of the whole move and call it a negative movement - but's it's not. Anyway - as in 2 above as you are at the bottom of the turn and about to cross the fall line you can (and I know some have posted on Epic people don't have the leg strength to do this, but they are mistaken) lift the weight off the outside leg and Not have the turn change or your body start to move over the skis. Just like Eric and Rob describe on Page 35 you can indeed move all weight to the inside ski then tip that old outside leg and crank it. The advantage of this move for some is that by moving all weight to the inside uphill ski at the end of the prior turn, you just can not skid your entry into the new turn. You'll carve right from the top.

4. Whether you do a super phantom which emphasizes what Lito calls in his book on his variation of the same exact movement pattern - the Early Weight Shift - or do less of step three and do more of the what Harold (sorry Ott) calls the weighted release or what Lito calls the soft release, the rest of the transition is the same. The old outside ski has been flexed (flexion) and tipped causing the body to move accross the skis which causes the inside leg to move from its weight bearing LTE to its BTE maintaining a carve except for that microscopic moment when the ski moves from LTE to BTE. (following Harold this looks like the line jumped the width of the skis in the snow - there is no flat transition stage.)

So, in doing the phantom move many people teaching these movement patterns really focus as Eric and Rob do on this ability to ride to help set up the transition for a brief moment on the LTE of the uphill ski. Eric and Rob in their book never really move past this move except in their apendix where they cover PMTS thru to the weighted release.

Even when shifting to the weighted release (HH) or soft release (Lito) where the focus is more on the colapse of the weighted outside leg and doesn't really focus on riding the LTE of the upper ski, both focus on the newly unweighted leg by tipping it towards it's LTE.

So personally I'm still experimenting with the mix of Super Phantom and Weighted Release. In really short radius turns I find I'm not really moving to the inside LTE on the end of the last turn, but simply colapsing and tipping. On more GS turns I really like the feel of going to the LTE of the inside leg while still in the prior turn, then cranking to the LTE of the old outside unweighted ski to generate the transition.

What people don't do with the LTE move on the inside ski is step back uphill. Any move to the LTE of the inside ski is done before the new turn has even begun to begin and the body is still up the hill. It's not a negative movement at all.

And none of the above has anything to do with the Hockey stop just the Hockey stop is fun to play with as generated with a flat stance ski and unweighted tipped inside ski.

(I'm going skiing for 6 days 4 days :) )
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Postby BigE » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:58 am

suebrown wrote:
So if I'm carving in a turn, and I lift up my inside ski, and make no movement to balance (i.e. more edging, or moving my upper body over my outside ski), my outside ski will pivot? Hmmm, I guess I've just never experienced this.


Not exactly. I was thinking of flat running, not carving.
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Postby suebrown » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:19 pm

*SCSA wrote:I think you're trying to make turns from your PC and it just can't be done. I think basic questions can be answered, but after that, time to go make turns.


I think you're right, SCSA! This whole conversation is starting to make my head hurt. ;)

But, hey, just to hijack my own thread ...

I'm going to try out some Harb Carvers tonight with Jay! I'm very excited! Wish me luck! I should probably bring knee pads, huh? And a helmet and wrist guards and elbow guards.

Hey, what if you could attach skis between the carvers and your boots? The skis would serve no purpose except to make you really think you were skiing. And they'd probably make it easier to break your leg if you fell, so that might be a small downside. On the upside, though, you could probably do some rad wheelies ... OK, I'm rambling. Bye.
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:29 pm

Hey Sue,
You're bringing knee pads? Are you gonna wear tight shorts, too? :P

Oh my Gawd, girl, don't tell me that. You're gettin me all hot and bothered. :lol:

I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight. :P

#############

You won't get this kinda stuff on gapic...
*SCSA
 

Postby suebrown » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:36 pm

*SCSA wrote:Hey Sue,
You're bringing knee pads? Are you gonna wear tight shorts, too? :P

Oh my Gawd, girl, don't tell me that. You're gettin me all hot and bothered. :lol:

I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight. :P

#############

You won't get this kinda stuff on gapic...



And I'd better not get any more of it here.
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hey dude!

Postby skier_j » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:53 pm

*SCSA! chill

deep breathes, 12 step.

whatcha trying to do? Scare off the newbies?

Off to the tree house and breathe!

NOW

do I have your attention?

Hijack then.

Gapic has a pair of 170 IM 75's with binders and another set of IM 70's w/ binders at 170

either is in the $300 range.

I want to replace the circa 2000 P 40's in 177.

I'm good to VG---not expert tho!, 145# and 5'5 tall.

East coast mostly

wadayathink?

which?
Whee!
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:52 pm

Bleepity, bleep.

The Christian right has shown up.
*SCSA
 

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