Long out side leg? How?

[Uli]

MonsterMan,
IMHO, you are absolutely right. Just look at Jay's picture on page 1 one more time. It shows exactly what you are saying:

Position 1 shows the flex of both legs during transition with both legs are equally flexed.
Position 2 shows the flex of both legs right before transition when the old outside leg is at its longest and the inside leg the most flexed.

If you compare position 1 with position 2 it is obvious that the old inside leg right before transition (position 1) is flexed more than it is at transition (position 2).

I think the key is, that when we say "flex to release" it is really the old outside leg that we want to flex; the old inside ski actually does the opposite in the process, i.e extends. As Jay said, it is simple geometry. I think as long as your mental focus is to flex the old outside leg, all is good...

IMHO, Jay's picture confirms exactly what TDK was seeing in Harald's montage. The old inside leg "extends" from its most flexed position right before transition to a less flexed position in transition. It has to extend somewhere, otherwise how could it become the long leg later in the turn. In reality, it is a continuum, a gradual change in leg flex, going from fully flexed at the end of the old turn to fully extended at the end of the new turn.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating to "extend" anything consciously. The focus in my mind should be "flex the old outside to release..." right before transition and "flex and tip the inside" after transition. Everything else is just overanalysis...

Hope this helps.

[HeluvaSkier]

IMHO, Jay's picture confirms exactly what TDK was seeing in Harald's montage.

tdk actually was arguing that the new inside leg also extended into the turn at the same time the new outside leg... basically saying that both legs were extending into the turn from an overly flexed point in transition. This is different from what Jay correctly illustrated in his diagrams.

[Uli]

Heluva,
you are right - I read that wrong.

I still think TDK deserves better treatment than he receives every time he expresses an opinion that is different from the way PMTS explains skiing....

[BigE]

Maintaining a 90 degree flexion while pulling back the inside ski and getting the hips forwards to apply shovel pressure is truly an amazing feat. While there is clearly no desire for the inside leg to extend, I don't see fault if a slight opening of the knee joint is an artifact of pulling back both feet to recenter. I certainly do not see a coaching point to suggest that one should focus on creating such an extension. In fact, the opposite is true -- you should try to continue to flex while pulling it back.

[MonsterMan]

I disagree that Jay's correct diagram shows the old inside leg extending through transition, I think it clearly indicates flexing both legs through transition and Harald has already made it quite clear that his new inside leg flexes more and more just after transition.

I am saying that I think that the old inside leg extends a little just before the release, as the skis converge, then both legs flex aggressively through transition to efficiently use the force to bring the body inside for the next arc.

BigE is eluding to what I thought was happening when I raised this some time ago, but I now don't think that it is the two foot pullback that extends the legs in transition in good turns, (I think it does in mine a bit, hence the red herring). If your ankles have enough flexibility, you can pullback without extending the legs.

So the only place left to complete the circle is just before the release as the stance ski bends more and converges with the free ski.

[Max_501]

Back to the point HH was making...the outside leg should lengthen to maintain contact with the snow in response to inside leg activity (flexing and tipping). There should be no pushing or forceful extension of the outside leg.

For the release the key is to focus on outside leg flex. For engagement of the new turn the focus is on inside leg flex and tipping. So, suck up the outside leg to release and keep on sucking it up and tipping it to enter the new turn as it becomes the new inside leg.

What happens with the old inside leg during the transition depends on the amount of outside leg flex used to release the turn. If, at the bottom of the turn, the inside leg is flexed to 90 degrees, and then the outside leg is only flexed to 70 degrees to release the turn, then the old inside leg will lengthen a bit to match the 70 degree angle. Again, no pushing or forceful extension is used, just enough to keep the ski on the snow.

[Ken]

I've noticed two errors at times with my skiing. At times I'm too heavy on the inside ski. The outside ski tracks way to the outside. The problem isn't really that the inside isn't flexed enough...that's the symptom. The real problem is that I'm not balanced over the outside ski's inside edge. The other problem is that sometimes I find that I'm not extending the outside leg--I'm skiing in a crouch. That is cured by a more forceful release so the momentum throws me across the skis more forcefully, and then consciously getting the outside leg straight. Not pushing it out with any force, but in fact getting it out as the body comes inside.

I've cured both of these problems just about all the time. Skiing sure is sweet when I've got everything working right

[tdk6]

IMHO, Jay's picture confirms exactly what TDK was seeing in Harald's montage.

tdk actually was arguing that the new inside leg also extended into the turn at the same time the new outside leg... basically saying that both legs were extending into the turn from an overly flexed point in transition. This is different from what Jay correctly illustrated in his diagrams.

I thaught I saw HHs inside leg get a little longer in frame 2 but I was obviously wrong. I think its only natural that we sometimes flex a little extra in transition causing a slight minimal opening of the inside leg knee joint as we tip into the new turn. Think of bumps or powder skiing. All the talk of dynamic skiing should allow us some freedome in this area. The pahntom move for instance with the relesing of the stance ski up in the air and putting it down involves some movement in the knee joint. The reason I asked was that I thaught it might have had a special meaning. Obviously not and Im totally clear that good skiing does not involve a deliberate inside leg extension right after transition. Sorry for all the confusion.

[Ken]

Maintaining a 90 degree flexion while pulling back the inside ski and getting the hips forwards to apply shovel pressure is truly an amazing feat. While there is clearly no desire for the inside leg to extend, I don't see fault if a slight opening of the knee joint is an artifact of pulling back both feet to recenter. I certainly do not see a coaching point to suggest that one should focus on creating such an extension. In fact, the opposite is true -- you should try to continue to flex while pulling it back.

I don't feel quite what you're describing, but I'll look for it when I ski tomorrow.

...you should try to continue to flex while pulling it back.

We MUST continue flexing and tipping more and more and pulling it back or the skiing is static, doesn't work right nor feel right, and becomes the subject for a new thread and movement analysis here.

[jclayton]

TDK6 ,
I think you are trying to read too much into the photos .

Logically , just after release , if it is a dynamic turn there will be rebound of the old stance leg . The leg naturally will extend slightly to re-contact the snow ( unless of course it is kept up off the surface completely ) .

The main point of course is that inside leg extension implies pressuring with the inside leg , the above move would merely be to maintain contact .

As you say , dynamic skiing implies subtle changes or modifications to adjust to terrain , speed , snow conditions etc . The " essential " or basis is unchangeable .

Overintellectualization is one of the pitfalls of TTS .

[BigE]

Ken,

Look for a slight tendency to want to stand up a bit while pulling back the feet/inside foot.

[Max_501]

At the transition the foot pullback movement is mainly a hamstring contraction so the knee joint should close rather than open during the foot pullback.

[BigE]

Agreed Max.

But since it's a recentering movement, the skier may want to push their hips forwards, which would result in them "standing up" a touch.

[ChuckT]

At the transition the foot pullback movement is mainly a hamstring contraction so the knee joint should close rather than open during the foot pullback.

Does closing the knee joint make the hip move aft more? Do you project your hips forward after pulling the feet back?

[Max_501]

Does closing the knee joint make the hip move aft more?

At transition pulling the feet back gets you more forward. The knee joint closes because the hamstrings are pulling the feel back and possibly up (if the pulling movement is strong enough).

Do you project your hips forward after pulling the feet back?

I don't think about projecting my hips in any direction. How does one project the hips forward? What muscles are used?