Long out side leg? How?

[HeluvaSkier]

I have never advocated extension (I advocate letting the leg get long through other movements) in any forum, that's why I as surprised about the question, in fact, I am on record as saying extension to either push to extend, or to push the body to the side or to get a long leg or raise the body, doesn't have a place in modern skiing.

Exactly. That is why when I first glanced at it I had to re-read it a few times before I got the idea. I knew it would be a cold day, you know where, before you taught something that involved extending through the transition since it doesn't work all that well [at all] in high level skiing... No matter though. The thread has nothing to do with that anyway.

[h.harb]

It's sometimes helpful to totally clarify the meanings.

Out for now, be back in a few days.

[HeluvaSkier]

It's sometimes helpful to totally clarify the meanings.

Out for now, be back in a few days.

Thanks! Enjoy.

[tdk6]

This is about as low as I go in the transition. This is steep and very hard snow. Although the inside knee doesn't look like it's flexing much more than in transition, I can tell you there is lots of emphasis on bending while tipping it out to the little toe. IF IT DIDN'T, THE ANGULATION OR ANGLES CREATED, WOULD BE ALL WITH THE BIG TOE EDGE AND OUTSIDE KNEE DRIVE.

To me it looks like a slight simultanious extention of both legs in frame 2 and a couple of frames onward. The inside leg is then flexed to the max later on after apex when the highest edge angles are required. This is also when skis track the widest apart from each other. Is this correct?

[HeluvaSkier]

To me it looks like a slight simultanious extention of both legs in frame 2 and a couple of frames onward. The inside leg is then flexed to the max later on after apex when the highest edge angles are required. This is also when skis track the widest apart from each other. Is this correct?

Nope. The focus tdk, should not be extending both legs. What Harald is attempting to show here (regardless of what you feel the illustration shows) is that collapsing the inside leg (not extending) can aid in forcing the outside leg to extend into the turn to maintain contact with the snow and also aids in tipping. Re-read SkierSynergy's post on page one. So, if you're having trouble getting a straight outside leg, perhaps your focus should turn to what you're doing with the inside leg...

[tdk6]

To me it looks like a slight simultanious extention of both legs in frame 2 and a couple of frames onward. The inside leg is then flexed to the max later on after apex when the highest edge angles are required. This is also when skis track the widest apart from each other. Is this correct?

Nope. The focus tdk, should not be extending both legs. What Harald is attempting to show here (regardless of what you feel the illustration shows) is that collapsing the inside leg (not extending) can aid in forcing the outside leg to extend into the turn to maintain contact with the snow and also aids in tipping. Re-read SkierSynergy's post on page one. So, if you're having trouble getting a straight outside leg, perhaps your focus should turn to what you're doing with the inside leg...

Regardless of what the photos show!!! Are you saying that in the photo montage of HH there is no extention of the inside leg between frame 1 and 2? Also, how can you flex your inside leg if its alredy flexed?

[HeluvaSkier]

Regardless of what the photos show!!! Are you saying that in the photo montage of HH there is no extention of the inside leg between frame 1 and 2? Also, how can you flex your inside leg if its alredy flexed?

First off, I said regardless of what you feel the photos show. Second, instead of trying to argue the semantics of what is being presented why not try to understand it and why it is being presented the way it is? Think about the application to a lower level skier for a minute. As an instructor I would think you would find this kind of thing valuable, but apparently not.

[Icanski]

tdk,
You wanted to know how you can flex your leg if it's already flexed. It's a matter of degree of flex. If you are standing up and you flex your leg so your thigh is parallel to the floor, it's flexed; right? Now if you flex it more so it's another 20 degrees higher, it's flexed even more.
Or try the pole lean exercise: it's in the book, but you stand two feet from a post, or wall, and counterbalance as you move your hips toward the wall/pole. Once leaning against it, flex your legs so you slide down the pole/wall abit. Now walk your feet out from the pole. your stance/outside leg will extend, but as you get lower, your inside leg will have to flex to let your torso get lower.
Do a half squat so your thighs are parallel to the floor, then sink down so you're all the way into a deep squat with your butt almost on the floor. Your legs were flexed and they flexed even more.
In the wall squat the outside leg isn't pushing your hips or body lower into the turn, it's the flexing of the inside leg that really lets you get lower. The stance leg is moving out/extending, but the inside leg/free foot is flexing to let you down.
Look at the pictures again. I wouldn't say HH is standing up in frame two, his skis are starting to move away from his torso, and then as he flexes that free foot his body drops down as his stance leg moves away and the free foot moves away and flexes. If you have the DVD, watch it and you'll see this happen.
HOpe that helps,
Icanski

[h.harb]

I think we have to get a few definitions correct. Flexing means bending, so until my heel is up against my butt, I can always flex more, Yes, I can flex more from the low float position, I'm in. Maybe it's only a few degrees, but the point is I'm doing the opposite of extending. I do the opposite of what BB and fastman do. I increase flexing; they extend.

I don't ski like BB or fastman, thank goodness.

And I am not simultaneous extending, "gee wis" I didn't even know there was such a thing, thanks TDK. Is that an Epic Technique? The amazing things we learn on this forum. Shakespeare would say "Sarcasm becomes thee."

sarcasm |ˈsärˌkazəm|
noun
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt : his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment

I wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand me? That's also sarcasm.


We also have to define extending for the 100 time. It means getting the out side leg or letting the leg get long by letting (the forces at the release) move the body away from the ski, not push the body by extension of the leg.. And we don't move the ski away from the body, BTW. Just because you see extending into the top of the turn, in my skiing, doesn't mean I'm doing it. It only means you are looking at it with PSIA glasses or you have been in the "PSIA continuum" too long, once you have been "assimilated" for more than a year, it's almost impossible to correct your vision.

continuum:
a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct : at the fast end of the fast-slow continuum.

• (usu. be assimilated) absorb and integrate (people, ideas, or culture) into a wider society or culture :

As in Jay's (skisyn) drawing, if your CG is moving closer to the inside leg/ski, which it is in the second frame and rest of the frames of my montage, my leg has to be flexing by definition. If it were extending, my body would be moving away from the inside ski, which it is clearly not.

[tdk6]

To me it looks like a slight simultanious extention of both legs in frame 2 and a couple of frames onward. The inside leg is then flexed to the max later on after apex when the highest edge angles are required. This is also when skis track the widest apart from each other. Is this correct?

Sorry, my meaning was not to upset you guys. A simple NO would have been enough. Its obviously NOT correct.

[h.harb]

But we are having so much fun. We don't get upset with you any more.

[Baja1]

This is about as low as I go in the transition. This is steep and very hard snow. Although the inside knee doesn't look like it's flexing much more than in transition, I can tell you there is lots of emphasis on bending while tipping it out to the little toe. IF IT DIDN'T, THE ANGULATION OR ANGLES CREATED, WOULD BE ALL WITH THE BIG TOE EDGE AND OUTSIDE KNEE DRIVE.

To me it looks like a slight simultanious extention of both legs in frame 2 and a couple of frames onward. The inside leg is then flexed to the max later on after apex when the highest edge angles are required. This is also when skis track the widest apart from each other. Is this correct?

Although it looks like both legs are extending, keep in mind that Harald's orientation to the camera is changing.

In the second frame, the "extension" you see is actually his hips moving inside the turn due to tipping. The inside leg is not extending at all, and in fact the inside ankle is starting to flex more than the first frame.

[tdk6]

Baja1, thanks for your input on the subject at hand. It could well be that its the camera and other stuff you said are true as well. Thanks.

[Ken]

To detect extension I look at the angle of the outside knee, not whether or not the body is rising and falling. If the outside knee bends more (flexing) at the end of the turn, that is NOT extension. If the angle of the outside knee straightens at the end of the turn, that IS extension.

Harald has previously mentioned the power of momentum. The momentum of the previous turn is the force that is moving the body inside the new turn, not the force of extending the leg. Extending the new outside leg as the new turn develops takes no force, 'cuz the body is moving to the inside when that momentum is allowed to work. It is elegant and exhilarating at the same time.

[MonsterMan]

At the end of a turn, when you flex the stance leg to tip it to a higher edge angle and to "match" the free leg flex angles, (just before the release), does it really get to the same amount of maximum flex of the free leg? or does that inside leg actually extend a little here as the skis converge?

If the answer is "not quite", then the flex/extend equation can be solved. The stance leg and free leg have matched amounts of flex then through the transition, but this amount of flex is slightly less than the maximum amount of flex through the heavily loaded portion of the turn. The new free leg therefore has somewhere to go regarding flexing more through the turn.

For example, lets say that Harald's legs are flexed to 90 degrees through transition, then, as he progresses through the next arc, he flexes his inside leg more and more as he tips more and more. Perhaps he gets to free leg flexed to 80 degrees?? To get more tipping of the stance leg towards the end of the arc he flexes the stance leg and tips that ski more onto edge, tightening the arc and converging the stance ski towards the free ski. If during this movement the free leg extends a bit, maybe only back out to 90 degrees for Harald, then both legs can again go through transition matched in flex with somewhere to go for the new free leg to flex more in the next turn.

I'm not suggesting that this extension of the free leg coming into transition is a conscious "movement" that anyone should think about, just identifying where the flexing extending "loop" is closed.

I'm probably wrong, please let me know either way.

Geoff