Long out side leg? How?

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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:39 am

TDK

Man, you need to listen to what you are reading...the video is showing Sato pulling his feet back at every transition...your feet and skis are almost always trying to run away from you , and you need to keep them in check...Have you ever felt that in your skiing? Even when I hadn't a clue as to how to ski I was very aware that I couldn't stay out of the backseat, esp when conditions got tougher....thx to PMTS, now I know how to keep that in check....it always is in my conciousness while I am skiing.

Mike
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:46 am

tdk6 wrote:Are you saying that @ 0:04 and @ 0:13 his hips are over his feet!?


I'm saying the feet are pulled back towards the hips as far as possible. Can I pull my feet back so far that they end up under my hips when I'm deeply flexed? No, I'm not strong enough to do that. But I certainly can pull them back enough to make a definite difference in my fore/aft balance as I enter the new turn. And the video shows a strong pullback during the period of time that you said it was not possible.

tdk6 wrote:Then why are you putting up a video of a guy that does not ski PMTS?


Because it is showing exactly what we, as PMTS skiers, would like to do.

tdk6 wrote:Please tell me also what I am contradicting in this case!


PMTS teaches a pullback at transition. Up above you said that is not possible.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:46 am

The problem TDK is that you are constantly and repeatedly given the correct answers and examples that PMTS provides...and then you continue to fight them, like you don't want to accept them..this is ok if you don't accept or buy in, but frustrating to all here...maybe the answers you want are somewhere else?

Your are on this forum an amazing amount of time...why bother if you are always figting what is presented here?

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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:50 am

Mikey B wrote:If you look at that montage of Svindal again you will see that immediately after transition, his skis are back underneath him...how do you think they got there? He is pulling the feet back underneath him through the entire turn...the feet are racing ahead, just as ours do...which is why it is a constant and concious action to keep those feet underneath him, and us!..and imagine at that speed and in those conditions on a race course. They also push to the edge of control.

HH always and constantly says that pictures and even video do not always tell the story about what is happening for a skier, especially a World Cup skier, unless you have been there and/or have the knowledge to disseminate it...their strategy, awareness, skills and response to race conditions is beyond the knowledge of most of us, and we cannot get into their head in pics to know what they are thinking, reacting to and trying to do at a particular moment.

It can look like the skier is standing up when the feet are pulled back and retracted at transition simply because they are going from the bottom of the turn at extreme angles, and retracting and pulling the feet back putting their feet underneath them and flat on the hill for a moment...the change from the extreme angles to skis flat on the hill , and then towards extreme angles again give the impression of the skier rising as his body moves across the skis.

Bottom line...PULL THE FEET BACK...it works, pull back the feet and you will feel the increase in control...you cannot tip effectively with your feet out in front. Feet out in front equals twisting, steering and gross body movements to try to accomplish a turn... and you can see this when a World Cup skier gets caught in the back seat and is fighting to both make the turn and to get back over their skis. I don't think the average skier can appreciate the effort these guys have to make to stay forward.

Mike

Mike, you are caught in a loop. You keep repeting what others say: pull the feet back. Tell me something, you are saying that imediatly after transition Svindals skis are BACK UNDERNEATH HIM. Why should he pull his skis BACK underneath him if they are underneath him the whole time? Cant you see that the skis got ahead of his hips at transition? Tell me you are not blind.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:57 am

Max_501 wrote:
tdk6 wrote:Are you saying that @ 0:04 and @ 0:13 his hips are over his feet!?


I'm saying the feet are pulled back towards the hips as far as possible. Can I pull my feet back so far that they end up under my hips when I'm deeply flexed? No, I'm not strong enough to do that. But I certainly can pull them back enough to make a definite difference in my fore/aft balance as I enter the new turn. And the video shows a strong pullback during the period of time that you said it was not possible.

....as far as possible.... that is not what you said in the beginning. You are now changing your opinion about this issue. And, it has nothing to do with how strong you are if you can pull your feet back if you are flexed 90deg. Skiing is not about how strong you are. In the transition you are floating and you need to be very sencetive about your movements. And .....as you enter a new turn.... dont hold me for stupid. That is hardly the same as during the transition is it. You have just proved me right and you wrong. Thank you.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:59 am

Mikey B wrote:The problem TDK is that you are constantly and repeatedly given the correct answers and examples that PMTS provides...and then you continue to fight them, like you don't want to accept them..this is ok if you don't accept or buy in, but frustrating to all here...maybe the answers you want are somewhere else?

Your are on this forum an amazing amount of time...why bother if you are always figting what is presented here?

Mike

Great for you, put up some of your skiing so I can see how it all works. Im here to learn. You are obviously fully learned allredy.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:00 am

TDK
You are an ass...I said that his feet have gotten out from under him..but what you can't see is that he is fighting to keep them underneath..which he is able to eventually accomplish..if he wasn't fighting for this position his feet would run out from underneath him, way more than any of those pics in the montage show, and he would end up on his ass, or head.

In the loop? I have done it, that's how I know it works. And you? Maybe you should get off the computer and get out and ski. Your skis will attempt to get out from under you unlike that chair you are sitting in.

You know, I used to always give you the benefit of the doubt...but in reality I think you are here to get a rise out of people...but you can't...because we are all skiing better because of PMTS...we know it works...you just seem to be a good typer.

I tried to stand up for you a bit with HH, as he can be harsh at times...but in this case, he is 100% correct.

Mike
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:12 am

tdk6 wrote:....as far as possible.... that is not what you said in the beginning. You are now changing your opinion about this issue.


If you go back and look at my opening post in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2322

You'll see that I said:

Because we use a flex movement to release the turn its important to pull both feet back at transition to get the feet back under our hips (or as close as we can). This is done by contracting the hamstrings.


So, I haven't changed my opinion on this at all. We use the external cue of pulling the feet back under the hips in PMTS because it works.

tdk6 wrote:And, it has nothing to do with how strong you are if you can pull your feet back if you are flexed 90deg. Skiing is not about how strong you are. In the transition you are floating and you need to be very sencetive about your movements. And .....as you enter a new turn.... dont hold me for stupid. That is hardly the same as during the transition is it. You have just proved me right and you wrong. Thank you.


Physical conditioning including strength, stamina and flexibility are a large part of expert skiing. I don't understand the point you are trying to make above.

Edit - I think I see a point of misunderstanding. During the transition it is common for the skis to get ahead of the hips. If I do nothing during the transition then when I enter the new turn I will be solidly in the backseat with little hope of getting forward early (if at all). However, if I pull my feet back as much as I can during the transition then when I enter the new turn they will be closer to my hips which is a big help in getting forward early. Even small amounts like an inch or two make a difference.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:12 am

I appreciat you staning up for me thanks. Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Yes you can call me an ass for all you like but will that make you a better skier?

Mikey B wrote:TDK
You are an ass...I said that his feet have gotten out from under him..but what you can't see is that he is fighting to keep them underneath..which he is able to eventually accomplish..if he wasn't fighting for this position his feet would run out from underneath him, way more than any of those pics in the montage show, and he would end up on his ass, or head.
Mike


Is it ok that his feet have gotten out from under him? IMHO there is no fight, there is float.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:19 am

There is both!

and what makes me a better skier is PMTS training...are you too afraid to try it? You think it might actually work?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:27 am

Max_501 wrote:
tdk6 wrote:....as far as possible.... that is not what you said in the beginning. You are now changing your opinion about this issue.


If you go back and look at my opening post in this thread:

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2322

You'll see that I said:

Because we use a flex movement to release the turn its important to pull both feet back at transition to get the feet back under our hips (or as close as we can). This is done by contracting the hamstrings.


So, I haven't changed my opinion on this at all. We use the external cue of pulling the feet back under the hips in PMTS because it works.

tdk6 wrote:And, it has nothing to do with how strong you are if you can pull your feet back if you are flexed 90deg. Skiing is not about how strong you are. In the transition you are floating and you need to be very sencetive about your movements. And .....as you enter a new turn.... dont hold me for stupid. That is hardly the same as during the transition is it. You have just proved me right and you wrong. Thank you.


Physical conditioning including strength, stamina and flexibility are a large part of expert skiing. I don't understand the point you are trying to make above.

I dont know Max but to me it sounds like you want to pull your feet back at transition in order to get your feet back under your hips at transition. I would have said that as we flex through transition and our feet are displaced forward of our hips (human anatomy) we need to pull both feet back after the float is over at the end of the transition as we gain pressure back to recenter.

BTW, you dont need big muscles to be a good skier. Usually its the other way arround. Try to do everything with great muscle strength and you are doing it all wrong.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:30 am

Mikey B wrote:There is both!

and what makes me a better skier is PMTS training...are you too afraid to try it? You think it might actually work?
M

Sure I have tried it. This is my 3rd year of actively digging into PMTS. I think the essentials is the best book on skiing.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:42 am

Then why fight it if it is the "best book on skiing"? Max501 is one of the most learned skiers regarding PMTS on this forum, yet you fight him as well as Harald and others. If you have been digging into it, and practicing it for 3 years, then you should know that it works. Perhaps you are practicing incorrectly. Get to a camp.

Yes, the feet slide forward of the hips, but if the skier did not try to pull back and hold them as close to underneath his or her body...then how far ahead would they go???? I try to always pull back...that tension keeps my skis from running away at that point in the transition to the new turn...if I constantly do this, at the point then when I can get them back underneath where they belong, they are there!

Mike
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Mikey B » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:47 am

and despite that you don't necessarily need big muscles for skiing, Max is right...certain movements are better performed when a skier has more strength, which doesn't always correlate to big muscles...as Max says endurance, strength , agility, flexibility, and body awareness all are part of expert skiing..once you understand the correct movements!

Mike
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:18 am

tdk6 wrote:I dont know Max but to me it sounds like you want to pull your feet back at transition in order to get your feet back under your hips at transition. I would have said that as we flex through transition and our feet are displaced forward of our hips (human anatomy) we need to pull both feet back after the float is over at the end of the transition as we gain pressure back to recenter.


For some reason you continue to contradict PMTS instruction on the PMTS website. Why?

Note that this is the same direction you tried to take the other thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2322&st=0&sk=t&sd=a).

In that thread HH said,

h.harb wrote:Hey, TDK nice try on bringing this thread down to Epic levels. Just read it, do what it says, and it will make you a better skier.


Jay (a high level PMTS coach) also offered the following (notice the bit I put in bold):

SkierSynergy wrote:It's not about a position in which you must stay. It's about understanding a cause and effect relationship.

IF you want to get in the driver's seat, then pulling a foot/feet back would be a good thing to do.

When would it be useful to be in the driver's seat? simple answer.
If I have my skis on, I like to be in the driver's seat.

So, when should I have tension to keep/pull the feet back? The answer is obvious.
There is no inconsistency with "keep my feet back" and "pull my feet back."
It's just a matter of degree in the same movement/effort .

If you want to move the feet back, a general rule for when it is easier to move the feet back is when they are lightened.

Flexing the inside leg during tipping lightens it. It is easier to pull it back.
The point at which one flexes and rolls through the transition at the top of the turn, is an obvious point that is easier to pull both skis back.
Choose your medicine.

Another simple rule is that I would rather stay out of the back seat than try to get back in the front seat once I lose it.
But everyone loses it. The main thing is not trying to ski in a position but a be able to understand and control the movements.
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