Why? Inside ski pull-back

[Harald]

Inside foot pull-back
I have used pulling the inside boot or ski back since the seventies. It was useful for racers who were constantly in the back seat. Most skiers don?t realize how active you have to be, especially at first when you are on steeps or on icy snow. You have to control the fore/aft movements with your feet, pulling them under your body on every turn. Once the boot is pulled back don?t just let it start slipping forward, through the turn. Keep the inside foot pulled back through the whole turn to benefit from its effect on the slicing edge of the stance ski in the snow. Once you have control of this ankle function, you can start letting the ankle on the stance ski relax to move the pressure toward the back part of the ski under the heel.

Hip following
The foot pull back move not only helps move your hips over your feet, (better balance, less torque required to turn the skis) but it also adds carving action to the stance ski. The pulled back foot and the tugging from that action, puts an easy, controllable, rotation in the hip, so it can keep up with the ski?s direction change. If slight following doesn?t happen you end up parked and static. Most skiers think the hip follows the skis by a hip rotation. Hip movements are too strong and hard to control, so we don?t recommend them. If you can control movement from the base of the Kinetic Chain, you have a better chance of success.

Skis coming together
The reason the skis come closer together at the end of turns is because the stance ski carves a more pressured arc than the inside ski. The pressure from the arc tightens the radius and brings the stance ski toward the inside ski at he end of the turn.

Parallel Leg shafts
The constant parallel leg shaft skiing doesn?t allow you to achieve big angles or a high pressured bent stance ski. If the stance leg is to maximize pressure it must extend and the inside leg must be bent/flexed up and under the body. There is no way you can keep the leg shafts parallel in this situation. I often see instructors so focused on parallel leg shafts that they look contrived. Parallel leg shafts are a great tool for determining if someone can move with proper releasing movements, but in full battle you will rarely see the leg shafts remain parallel. The golf cart analogy, ?they all look the same and they all go slow?, comes to mind when I see a bunch of training instructors working on parallel leg shafts. The problem is that after they train parallel leg shafts, go back skiing they end up skiing like that all the time, because they think its what?s required. Many instructors are over analytical, a funny bred, they seem to take parts of technique or exercises and beat them to death, rather than proportioning them to benefit their skiing when and where appropriate.

[milesb]

Thank you for that Harald. I have a few comments/questions:
Am I correct in thinking that an effect of pulling the inside foot back is to limit the rotation of the leg in the hip socket? I think that this would be beneficial in that there is more (passive) rotation available at the end of the turn to accomodate a tightening of the turn while the hips and upper body face in the direction of the next turn. Or is it better to keep pulling the inside foot back at the end of the turn, and just move the upper body to anticipate the next turn? I'm really talking about short/very short turns here.
I also have some difficulty understanding proper PMTS technique when applied to fall line skiing. Specifically, keeping the upper body facing more or less straight downhill adds a bit of twisting to the skis when they are flattened between turns. Is this beneficial, or should it be resisted in some way?

[Hrald]

Miles, as always there are a number of hidden aspects to consider when responding to a question like yours. We have about twenty five to thirty degrees of internal rotation available in the femur from the hip socket when skiing. If a turn is legitimately 120 to 150 degrees from release to finish, it means we have to turn the body (Pelvis) with the turn at some point or we need to feed in a little body rotation as the turn progresses. If this isn?t done than we have the park and ride look we see with many skiers.

The short carved turn of the day, with shaped skis is no different than the larger carved turn. They both follow the side cut and angles created from tipping. When we had long skis we could skid the tails as there was plenty of tail to slow the skidding. Now skidding has a hard time slowing down speed, especially on steep terrain in cut up snow with 170cm skis.

Therefore in a very short turn, the body has to go through a rotation to keep up with the more complete carved turns we should make with shaped skis. With the straight skis few people ever made legitimate 130 degree carves. Most people just sided and set the edges. In my days with the demo team that?s what most of the team used for ski technique. They just disguised the skid and edge set better than most.

The pulling back move not only re-centers the mid body mass but it helps rotate the pelvis passively complimenting the speed and energy needed for the radius. I use it aggressively when making a series of energetic shorts on steeps or ice. You also have to flex that leg early or you won?t achieve a really short turn. Short turns with out aggressive flexing of the inside leg at release are not really carved. The angles of both skis have to be achieved before the skis turn. Which means the body has to be downhill of the skis.

Your other question about the body facing downhill, this is controlled by the pole plant and pole swing. The pole tip must never pass the straight line drawn from your boots to the falline. If you keep this in mind your upper body won?t over rotate byond the falline. I see many skiers reaching the fist and arm forward into rotation to set up the pole plant. Again, you have to allow the hips and pelvis to move using the pull back move as the turn progresses in short carves. If the pull back is not made, than skiers tend to rotate the out side hip and lose the tail of the ski. The big difference in modern skiing is the passive pelvis rotation. This is done with foot and boot activity. The graphics shown on a post earlier are a contrived, excessive, demonstration of what doesn?t work and is unattainable by most skiers. I hope this helps. Please contact me again with another post if I can elaborate more on this topic for you.

[*SCSA]

Well there you go.
I just learned a bunch, by reading HH's stuff. Well duh.

You can't keep the legs exactly parallel all the time when rippin, or in "full battle", as HH says. That's not what to think about. Rather, just focus on the Primary Movements; getting a clean release, with each turn.

HH. Right or not?

[*SCSA]

HH. is this better?
Geting a good release and flexion, with each turn.

[milesb]

Harald, thank you for the response. While I also learned something new from it, I don't think I made it clear what I was asking. So how about this:
Is it better to end a short turn
1. With the hips facing the same direction as the skis, and only the upper body facing the next turn, or

2. With both the hips and upper body facing the next turn. Or

3. Something inbetween?

And as far as the second question. I wanted to know if the twisting force that is released by flattening the skis should be resisted, if the intent is to make fall line turns ( in the bumps, for example). Or should I allow it to pivot the skis, if only a little bit? ( hey, can I ski like the demo team? )

Also, I assume you were referring to the photos that I posted in the "pure PMTS carving" thread. You are correct in that is is excessive, contrived, etc. Which I basically stated when I posted them, because it was just something I was playing around with that felt kind of neat. But I would disagree that it doesn't work, because I was certainly able to make the kind of turn I wanted to make! Which is not a useful turn, really, but more akin to doing the Mamba, a Royal Christy, skiing backwards, or just getting air. However, it DID illustrate that a skier could have his upper body downhill of his skis even on a fairly steep pitch without even coming close to falling over. Which was what Tommy seeemed to have a hard time grasping. If I had a picture handy of myself doing it the better way (by aggressively retracting the inside leg), I certainly would have posted that.

[Harald]

SCSA, you are "right on" with the releasing idea. Keep the inside foot pulling back and flex the inside leg until it is parallel with the surface. Now you are talking angles.

[Harald]

Milesb, I hope this isn't too complicated. It is late and I really need to be sleeping, but I wanted to have something to you today. I'll read it again tomorrow and probably think it's crazy, but then I'll correct it and you'll have a better response.

Defining angles of the hips or the shoulders to the skis is a product of skiing analysis. When we ski we can?t be focused on the angle of the hips or shoulders to the skis. We have to pay attention to what the skis are doing and where we are balancing. If my skis need more grip, I keep the hips and shoulders facing more downhill and I keep the inside hip into the hill, to support my edge angles. If I don?t need grip, I release my skis and my hips move more square. Remember, over square or beyond square is rotation, but over square is OK if the skis are flat or released, as over square sets you up for countered hips in the next turn. Most skiers come over square before they flatten the skis, this is rotation. This kind rotation doesn?t allow you to release, so upper body rotation is necessary and used again to begin the skis redirecting for the next turn.

When you release on steep slopes, in cut up or powder snow, as in all mountain conditions, we often use whatever is available for the situation. I have been known to rotate, counter and even throw the shoulder, but this is not ideal, as it will catch up to you. Keep the big mass as still as possible and use the lower body to release the upper body. Then the upper body is easy to control. Once you use the upper body to move the skis or set them in motion, momentum takes over and it is difficult to stop without an opposite equal force or reaction.

If, as you say, your skis pivot when you release and flatten on steeps, just after you release that?s OK, as long as you are letting gravity and the unwinding of the body from the previous turn take your skis to the falline. If you begin to tip the skis and align the upper body to the tipping, you?ll have a ?high C? attitude. If you stay over the skis, you won?t develop angles early enough to control speed. In this case, you will be looking for grip at the end of the turn when you should already be releasing. This is a downward spiral, literally.

[*SCSA]

Hey Rusty,

You need a shovel, do dig out of the weeds, over there? I'd like Rusty a whole bunch more, maybe even give he/she/it a big kiss, if I could just show up and make some turns with him and his crew. Rusty, I'll take my ribbings with catsup, please.

Maybe this year. I hope so.

Truth be told, ya gotta give it up for Rusty. He/she/it is a hero, because he/she/it has battled the demons and won. Cheers and salute (Rootbeer of course) to Rusty.

Now then. I've done a lousy job talking about parallel shafts. I think I wrote they're everything. Wrong! Like HH says, that's not what to focus on. Rather, focus on balance and getting a clean release. Focus on the Primary Movements. You do all that, parallel shafts will happen. But when they don't, no worries, as long as balance, getting a clean release and the Primary Movements are what you're thinking about.

We have to have freedom in our turns -- can't ski like robots or stick figures. We need to relax, let it fly.

10-4

[Colorado Skier]

Milesb, I hope this isn't too complicated. It is late and I really need to be sleeping, but I wanted to have something to you today. I'll read it again tomorrow and probably think it's crazy, but then I'll correct it and you'll have a better response.

Defining angles of the hips or the shoulders to the skis is a product of skiing analysis. When we ski we can?t be focused on the angle of the hips or shoulders to the skis. We have to pay attention to what the skis are doing and where we are balancing. If my skis need more grip, I keep the hips and shoulders facing more downhill and I keep the inside hip into the hill, to support my edge angles. If I don?t need grip, I release my skis and my hips move more square. Remember, over square or beyond square is rotation, but over square is OK if the skis are flat or released, as over square sets you up for countered hips in the next turn. Most skiers come over square before they flatten the skis, this is rotation. This kind rotation doesn?t allow you to release, so upper body rotation is necessary and used again to begin the skis redirecting for the next turn.

When you release on steep slopes, in cut up or powder snow, as in all mountain conditions, we often use whatever is available for the situation. I have been known to rotate, counter and even throw the shoulder, but this is not ideal, as it will catch up to you. Keep the big mass as still as possible and use the lower body to release the upper body. Then the upper body is easy to control. Once you use the upper body to move the skis or set them in motion, momentum takes over and it is difficult to stop without an opposite equal force or reaction.

If, as you say, your skis pivot when you release and flatten on steeps, just after you release that?s OK, as long as you are letting gravity and the unwinding of the body from the previous turn take your skis to the falline. If you begin to tip the skis and align the upper body to the tipping, you?ll have a ?high C? attitude. If you stay over the skis, you won?t develop angles early enough to control speed. In this case, you will be looking for grip at the end of the turn when you should already be releasing. This is a downward spiral, literally.

That was clear as mud

[Eddy]

It is understandable that not all skiers can understand or follow PMTS thinking. If you have been brought up with PSIA or traditional teaching you will have difficulty with these ideas.
PMTS is a different system that uses an opposite approach from tradition skiing for higher performance on shaped skis and shorting learning curves. If you are interested in learning faster and raising your skiing to a previously unattainable level, try following the PMTS system. You can begin with one of three publications ?Anyone can be an Expert Skier? 1& 2. or the PMTS instructor manual. I don?t have any problem with the description written about, how to use you body, but I have followed PMTS for the last two years.

[BigE]

The "clear as mud" post is clear to me.

The instruction is to ski with the feet, and allow the body to move in concert.

[*SCSA]

I'm 10-4 on it too.
But then again, I am a homey.

###############
On a related yet separate topic, have skiing movements ever been this defined?

My skiing life started now 5 years ago, this will be my 6th year.

But from what I've seen, skiing has never been clearer. At least in so far as PMTS. With PMTS, we can all talk about releasing, flexing, inside foot pull back, etc. When we do, everyone here "gets it." We never really get sideways about releasing or the inside foot pull back -- does it "work" or not. When topics like this come up, it's always in the context of trying to understand or peform the movement better. It's never about, "Hey. Is inside foot pull back any good?"

Whereas, on other sites, things seem to me more wide open. A turn can be made a hundred different ways and movements such as inside foot pull back are debated. I know on gapic, stance width is still being debated.

I'm not about everyone skiing the same -- we all need freedom, in our turns. But fer crying out loud. There are certain movements that every skier should follow, no? In our case, the Primary Movements.

10-4?

[piggyslayer]

I hope the negative comment did not put an end to discussion between milesb and Harald.
I would like the discussion to continue...

In particular, I would like to know if ?strong arm? can influence countered upper body position at the time of release/end of turn (if any).
From my own experiments, I have observed that strong arm tends to move my upper body into more square (aligned with skis) position as opposed to more countered (facing downhill) at the turn finish.
I appreciate comments on this.

[milesb]

Yes, I would still like to hear Harald's "revised" answer. Even though he answered my questions well, and I learned even more new things.
Oops, I almost forgot to thank Colorado Skier for the sarcasm. Thank you!