Why? Inside ski pull-back

[Colorado Skier]

If it is so clear will someone please explain the term "over square"? In addition how that can "set up" counter in the next turn?

The original question concerned the upper body, where it faced, and whether this was "proper" as it related to PMTS and rotation. Harald conveniently dodges that question and talks about over rotation due to a poor pole plant.

[milesb]

CS, Harald sez: If my skis need more grip, I keep the hips and shoulders facing more downhill and I keep the inside hip into the hill, to support my edge angles. If I don?t need grip, I release my skis and my hips move more square.
That is a very direct, clear answer.

Over square. I'm pretty sure (by the context) that Harald means that the hips and/or upper body are facing farther inside the turn than the skis. If you ended a turn like this, when you entered the new turn you would be in a countered position. Maybe you would like to call it "overrotated". Whatever, it doesn't really matter because I understood it.

Harald also sez: If, as you say, your skis pivot when you release and flatten on steeps, just after you release that?s OK, as long as you are letting gravity and the unwinding of the body from the previous turn take your skis to the falline.

Another direct, clear answer. Clear as vodka, in fact.

Perhaps you could give me a better answer?

[BigE]

If it is so clear will someone please explain the term "over square"? In addition how that can "set up" counter in the next turn?

Remember, over square or beyond square is rotation, but over square is OK if the skis are flat or released, as over square sets you up for countered hips in the next turn,

So, "Over square or beyond square is rotation": the hips/shoulders are facing uphill of the path of the skis.

Now, how does that "set you up for countered hips"? When you allow the skis to turn to face the other direction, your hips are already countered!

Then Harald's warning:

Most skiers come over square before they flatten the skis, this is rotation. This kind rotation doesn?t allow you to release, so upper body rotation is necessary and used again to begin the skis redirecting for the next turn.

And just in case one thinks that ALL pivotting and upper body influence is a "bad thing", Harald says it is not:

If, as you say, your skis pivot when you release and flatten on steeps, just after you release that?s OK, as long as you are letting gravity and the unwinding of the body from the previous turn take your skis to the falline.

This is quite ideal I'd say, since the body will "unwind" and pivot the skis naturally if you start in a countered position.

However, in my humble opinion the true nugget in this post are these few words:

if you begin to tip the skis and align the upper body to the tipping...

THEN,
(with apologies to Harald for this cut/paste job):

Defining angles of the hips or the shoulders to the skis is a product of skiing analysis.

Hope this helps!

[Eddy]

Look ?Colorado Skier?, what?s with the attitude? People here get along, but you sound like a child who lost his candy. Harald has never ?conveniently dodged? a question that was properly asked and genuinely intended. I personally think his explanation was right on target. If you want further information on this subject, just ask. I?m sure he would respond if he is available.

[*SCSA]

Well, HH's post was...not exact science.

But there you go!

History never changes.

[John Mason]

just a note of observation

some people have noticed correctly and it is a stage or way to get the skies turning, that facing the body down the hill and flattening your skies at the end of the turn will cause an unwinding effect

but

actually following hh on some tight turns or even gs turns what his tracks show are:

an immediate switch from one edge set to the other while the carving action is never broken.

track analysis looks like the skies jumped sideways by the width of the skies

so - the flatenning stage where the skies are loose and will react to passive rotation effects do not appear to be there at this level.

A more accurate observation is more like the new inside leg strongly flexes throwing the body over the skies and down the hill and the carving skis will catch up to keep the person from falling. No passive rotation occuring yet lots of disconnect between the upper body and lower body. The upper body is just balancing against the curved carving action of the skies.

Yet in early PMTS this passive rotation at the top of the turn creates the beginning of the turn and only the bottom of the turn is carved. This changes to top to bottom carved turn as the PMTS progression continues and the ability to increase the speed of the edge changed initiated by the inside foot action along with the flexion makes the edge change just make the tracks instantly jump sideways by the width of the skies.

(as anyone following HH easily observes) (nothing like seeing it vs reading it)

[milesb]

John, the unwinding effect is optional. Also, if you look closely, you will see that skiers making tight carved turns are often not facing straight downhill with their shoulders, often it's just the head. Indeed, with short shaped skis, it is very seldom necessary to keep the upper body facing straight downhill. In most situations, it's more for the economy of motion than for any rotational force.

[Colorado Skier]

It's a forum Miles. Next time I'll simply say I don't understand. You feel free to make all the smart comments you wish about teaching the wedge yet you bristle whenever someone, who might DARE to disagrees that PMTS is the greatest, says anything critical. OH and yes.....I am a PSIA member.

It was HH's use of the "over square". More specifically the use of the word "over". I now understand what he meant. It was beyond square or OVERLY rotated.


Here is what I really don't understand. In the past ANY rotation has been a cardinal sin among PMTSers. Now HH seems to suggest given certain circumstances it isn't taboo.


Now......don't be offended Miles. I'm now convinced Diana had a huge hand in writing Haralds works. I've seen too many instances where his command of the written word is at best limited.

Come on Harald.....give Diame a little credit for proofing and helping out with sentence composition.

[PSIA CARD CARRIER]

Look “Colorado Skier”, what’s with the attitude? People here get along, but you sound like a child who lost his candy. Harald has never “conveniently dodged” a question that was properly asked and genuinely intended. I personally think his explanation was right on target. If you want further information on this subject, just ask. I’m sure he would respond if he is available.

People here get along

Everyone gets along until there is a challenge. Look at all the potshots that have been taken concerning the hardworking PSIA instructors in the Rocky Mountain Division.

Would you like a list of the things said that I don't believe anyone would suggest come under the heading of "getting along"?

[milesb]

Hey, I've got nothing personal invested here! Teach the wedge all you want, what is it to me ( as Ott pointed out to me long ago )?
I don't know if PMTS is the best way of skiing, but I decided to give it a real try this next season, as it seems like it could help me with some of my skiing issues. This is why I am asking Harb questions in the narrow context of PMTS technique. While you are certainly free to try to disrupt this conversation, I just don't see what you hope to gain. Perhaps you feel that YOUR writing would be more beneficial to me? If so, I'd certainly welcome it.
Sure Harb is no Bob Barnes when it comes to ease of understanding ( who is?), but that doesn't mean that those of us who have read his material can't understand most of what he is saying. And he is open to trying to help me understand, how can anyone fault that?
In short, I can understand why many other instructors have a problem with him, but that's not my fight, is it?

[John Mason]

When the season starts cooking again (whatever that means - I'm skiing next week) - It'd be fun to hook up at Mammoth. I went for 4 days this year. (180 dollars roundtrip on ATA from Indy)

Interesting technical discussion. Rusty says on Epic to just stand up to get out of the back seat, HH says pull the free foot back.

If your in a strong short radius turn with your outside leg pretty extended, there is no "stand up" to go. Pulling the free foot back may be the only option in a case like this. Its interesting to see the different viewpoints and it's sure different.

Another way to develop this type of fore-aft balance is to pick up some carvers. You'll be on your Arse immediatly if you get in the back seat. They are not near as forgiving as skies, thus good for developing that type of balance.

Why all the swiping (give Diana credit - give me a break, his books do and to others as well). Sorry they are messing up your post. I have always enjoyed your discussions. At this level obviously they are going to get technical and detailed which increases the possiblity for mis-understanding - but the useless ad-hom attacks are just rude.

I'm already getting ideas to work on next week. Keep up the discussions.

[*SCSA]

Hi John. Great to see you, can't wait to make turns with ya this year!

Well, I don't see what the big deal is. Colorado Skier has he/she/it's undies in a wad (just razzin ya, don't get upset ) and now claims that PMTS does not teach being square to the hill.

But if you watch the videos and read the books, HH definitely teaches the counter. In fact, that's what it's called -- "The Counter".

So the counter is definitely part of PMTS.

Colorado Skier. Are you mistaking the counter for being over rotated? I think, the gang doesn't teach the counter to the degree PMTS does. I think the gang teaches more of a "look where you're going" approach.

I know I use the counter. If you don't counter, you're tails wash out. Counter, pull the inside foot back -- all part of getting those edges to bite.

Colorado skier. What up with you?

[*SCSA]

PSIA card carrier.

As part of my 12 step program, steps 8 and 9, I'm going to make restitution and amends to anyone I've offended during my...daze.

So please accept my apologies for offending the hard working instructors in your division. I've gone out of my way to offend and insult you and it's.......no where. You he/she/its work hard and you really love what you do. Way to go!

But I still don't think you should teach the wedge.

So, I'll be showing up at the Big Show during the gang events this year with hot chocolate and cookies. Maybe we could share a laugh?

Be cool,

[Harald]

I have just returned from extended summer trips and find the posts here very amusing. Before I continue the post about upper body position, rotation and movement let me say: I used language so I could keep a possibly lengthy discussion short. I do this because I rarely have time to elaborate with pages of text, as some others seem to have time to do. It turns out my description for a “PSIA Colorado skier, hard-worker” was inadequate. Please, if you don’t understand just ask a question in a reasonable way, no one will pick on you, why is there a need to become aggressively, unfriendly? I think non-instructors on the forum explained and pointed out where in my post the content was explained and clarified, Colorado Skier missed the points where I established pertinent connections for understanding. In my absence members of the forum demonstrated where his reading skills were lacking. Thank you, well done members.

The words, phrases in my explanation for that post which is now a number of posts and weeks old, were very plain and explained in short, but exact movements, referenced by positions in the turn. I was responding to a discussion in which the participants knew the context. I am sorry if some instructors didn’t understand the language, most likely because it’s not what is used in their systems or training.

When I am writing to the general public or to old school instructors, I flush out every detail and step, before it is published. Even when that is done, we find the old school instructors have difficulty-understanding skiing.
I have thousands of readers responding to my books with nothing but glowing reports. Yet I still have old school instructors who can’t figure out the system. Does that say something about the writing or the readers?

We employ, as stated, Diana, as well as many other editors. Some of our editors are non-skiers. I have not yet sensed, until now, that I needed to water down my writing for the regular participants on this forum. If there is a question about the topic and I am available, I normally respond immediately. In this case it wasn’t necessary and it wasn’t me who made the confused poster look like he could not read.

I know there is animosity toward me and I know why it exists. It is obvious when someone is asking questions that they do it to put down the subject material or insult PMTS or me directly. It comes from the PSIA lurkers who travel this site and forum. If you look at my work and PMTS systems as threatening or unnecessary, I’m afraid you will be angry for a long time. I am not stepping down and I will continue to expose sub par ski technique and teaching. I will continue to demonstrate to the skiing public that there are better lessons available then what are accepted as the norm.
And yes you can tell your friends that my ego is big enough not to be dented by any insults you choose to print, they don’t bother me, but they make you look rather juvenile.

Back to the topic that started this whole exchange, we have extensive, new, movement material about counter, counter rotation, moving to square and moving beyond square, (over-rotation) before the release. This is not new to us in PMTS, as we have been strong advocates of counter, but counter has never really been addressed in other ski teaching progressions. Counter is looked at very differently depending on which system you adhere to, we have our understanding of counter and how it should be used.

When and if counter is addressed it is minimized to “square is adequate” or “face downhill” statements. Most instructors and coaches don’t recognize rotation or where it comes from or why it is the culprit that holds skiers from progress. This was born out this summer with the athletes I was coaching and the coaches I coached with at Mt Hood. There seems to be very little recognition of mid body rotation. It almost seems like they look at it as acceptable. I have known this for a long time and always countered that attitude with proper description of upper lower body workings. In the last few years I have taken this subject on with more conviction. We are making a project out of using and preparing to ski with proper mid body to feet relationships.

In our camps and teaching sessions we introduce availability to complete programs of total body understanding and awareness. This includes recommendations for flexibility and strength training exercises. We still obviously begin with the kinetic chain concept, beginning movements at the base. We have complete mid body awareness programs on snow, which is supported by pole planting progressions. This has developed over the past six years, and is now supplemented by a dryland program that will be published in a Ski Flex 2 edition. Core, mid body strength and flexibility are clearly important in the development of the complete skier.

It isn’t only a rotational mid body issue that we find lacking in modern skiing and teachings, but also the side to side at the hip and mid/upper body movements that are necessary for supporting edge pressure loading. After the parallel phase or the beginning steps are accomplished and the skier is into the advanced phase of skiing they can develop difficult to correct, compensatory moves, due to lack of mid body awareness, flexibility and strength. PMTS instructors are trained to look at a skier from a complete development perspective, not just a person who came to a ski lesson or camp. Sure, many find immediate instant gratification from the Phantom Move, but before that stops being your answer to further development, we provide the other development steps. Surprised campers often comment, “I didn’t hear much about the Phantom Move today”.

An example of how the lack of complete development holds skiers back became apparent to me this winter. I observed old school training groups on the slopes of Colorado and found much lacking in their skiing and understanding. This lacking of understanding isn’t new, it didn’t begin with shaped skis, but in my estimation it has become worst with shaped skis, as lazy technique has crept in. The trend is to stand wide and roll the knees side to side. This may be skiing to some, but it is not advanced or expert skiing. As soon as the slope became steeper and icier, the skids and sideslips became the norm for controlling speed. Lacking in the skiing of this group was transfer of balance, engaging of the outside ski with lower body inclination and upper body counter balancing, in a word “Balance” on the supporting edge. This was an advanced instructor-training group. Yet static positions and lack of speed control were clearly obvious. The emphasis in PMTS training is completely different. I don’t need to go into the differences here. I know I will hear from the PSIA contingent on this one, so for those who will want to retaliate, there are PSIA skiers who can ski the way I am proposing, but unfortunately there were none in this training group.

The folks involved in systems sometimes get so involved in the dogma that they lose perspective and don’t evaluate what skiing movements are supposed to produce. In PMTS, we believe skiing movements should give you access to all snow, terrain and turns. This can’t be accomplished with a wide stance, both skis weighted and without balance transfer. Maybe the talk is right, I don’t know, but it isn’t being demonstrated where it counts, on the snow in the turns.
My comments will again be looked upon as adversarial and critical. Sorry, they are just observations based on my understanding of skiing. I would say the same thing about PMTS instructors or US Ski Team skiers, if they were skiing that way.

The future for PMTS skiers is exciting, as we are linking our entire ski teaching program with support materials, dryland training exercises that will be available in print and video/DVD in the near future. In and with PMTS, we have transcended two of the larger stumbling blocks for skiers, which are: avoiding and eliminating the wedge progressions producing their dead-end movements and inventing a summer ski training tool that will advance a skier faster than any know present off snow system. I will go as far as to say given present results, that learning to ski on Harb Carvers will make you an expert skier faster than learning to ski on snow.

I hope this continues lively discussion on a number of fronts.

[BigE]

I will go as far as to say given present results, that learning to ski on Harb Carvers will make you an expert skier faster than learning to ski on snow.

I must agree. Concrete is far less forgiving, as the wheels do not skid.
Body position and its alignment is critical. Increased lateral movement of the CM is much required over that of inlines -- just like on skis. Bad technique is exposed instantly -- skiing cleanly takes a whole new meaning. Skiing a nice clean line is even more rewarding.