PMTS should be accepted much wider.

PMTS Forum

Postby -- SCSA » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:01 pm

Make ski lessons free and you'll see a big revival in the sport. The number 1 reason why snowboarding is taking over the hill is that it's easy.

Skiing isn't easy and kids these days don't seem to like anything, that's not easy. It's the slacker mentality that's poisoning our culture.

Now when I say ski lessons should be free, I've now made an enemy of every ski instructor out there, right? :wink:

Hold on!

Ski lessons should be free and instructors would get paid by tips. Hiqh quality instruction would be the norm and instructors would make more money.

Sounds crazy, right? That means it'd probably work!

But back to the topic.
Today on the lift I talked with a woman who most definitely was a motivated skier. She started to tell me about her lesson yesterday. She then went on to tell me how confused she was.

In the morning, she skied the front side with her instructor. One the front side the instructor told her, "Don't pressure the tongue." Then in the afternoon they skied the back. When they got to the back the instructor told her, "Pressure the tongue."

Now, is this a contradiction? To her, it certainly was and she spent the rest of the day "Not really having a clue about what to do in the back." Think about it. In the morning she was given one set of instructions and in the afternoon she was given -- seemingly completely different instructions! In her words, "The guy completely contradicted himself"!

In the instructors defense, when they got to the back he was probably trying to teach her to stay a little more forward, because of the powder chop. I'll buy that.

But getting back to PMTS. In PMTS, this wouldn't have happened. Skiers are taught to use one set of movements. Pole plants and body position are always the same. While it's impossible to predict if the woman would have skied better had the lesson been PMTS, after talking with her I'm convinced her learning experience would have been way better. She would have got to the back and used the same turn, etc. that she was taught on the front side.

The woman then went on to tell me that she's been taking lessons but "I haven't gotten any better." Now, it's impossible to lay the blame on all the lessons she's paid for. It could very well be that she's not practicing.

But in talking with her, she didn't sound any different than other skiers I've talked to on the lift. You guys all know me, I talk to people. I've talked to so many skiers who basically echo this womans sentiments; they pay for lessons but can't seem to describe what it is they were taught, or they wonder out loud why they don't get any better.

If growth is the issue, how can a sport grow if the majority of the participants never get past the blue level? How can a sport grow without a true learning system in place?

I think PMTS fills a lot of holes. It's a true learning system that teaches skiers primary movements, from day 1. It's affordable, quite inexpensive, because students can learn from the 2 books and videos.

I dunno man. I really do believe that if getting skiers back to the hill is what the movers and shakers want, the key to the whole thing is the ski school. Every skier should get enough free ski lessons to get them to parallel. Direct parallel should be taught at every ski school in the land -- a ski lesson at Vail should be exactly the same as a ski lesson at Okemo. Imagine if you could ride up the lift and everyone on the chair knew what the weighted release was. Or what if you could talk to other skiers going up the lift about "tipping to the little toe edge"? People who've never met could help each other. The slopes would be safer.

Skiing will never be easy -- it might never be called cheap. But if ski industry would just wake up and focus on the ski school, not Coors Light, I think you'd see a big increase in skiers.

Happy New Year!
-- SCSA
 

Postby piggyslayer » Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:46 am

A lot of you in this thread talk about only 3 good PMTS instructors and lack of global PMTS acceptance. I want to comment on this as well.
There is a difference between Harb Ski Systems being small and lack of PMTS acceptance.

Let?s see, there is Bob Hintermeister, Craig McNeil, Maria Fermoile in US, Scott Burns and Peter Stone in Canada/Australia. All excellent instructors, all PMTS. The list is not exclusive these are simply the people I have heard about or met.
These people are building their carriers and grow their business independently from Harb Ski Systems and if there is any fairness they will all succeed and bring/train other great PMTS instructors on board.

I do not want to see Harb Ski Systems becoming big. I love the fact that the camps are small and I can remember all faces, exchange e-mails with all or most of the attendants and coaches. I do not believe that big company is capable of delivering the same quality of instruction as current Harb Ski Systems provides, and I am quite sure that Harald thinks the same way. All companies 100+ employees end up focusing on ?the bottom-line? which is not the customer, not the product, but the profit. We will never see the dedication, personal attention and hours spend on aligning each and every student in a large successful (in terms of commonly understood business growth) company.

Let?s look and PMTS success from a different point of view.
Lito Tejada-Flores Break Through On Skis camps in Aspen are not exactly PSIA.
Read the ?PMTS and Taos? post.
Read the ?When the boot is too soft or too stiff?? post where Mr.T gets a PSIA instruction on ?tipping inside foot toward the little toe?!
3 years ago attending a camp with Harb Ski Systems I turned on the TV. It was showing a ski instruction by a top Winter Park instructor. He was tipping little toe like crazy and showing PMTS like drills. Neither Harald nor PMTS was mentioned during instruction.
Let?s face it, Harald vision on new ski instruction is impacting ski instruction process already. Many PSIA instructors are reading or have read Harald?s books, read his articles, looked at Harb Ski Systems and PMTS web sites.
Unfortunately, the knowledge is bypassing the accreditation process and it is hard to asses the quality/correctness of mix-and-much instruction with bits and pieces of PMTS.
But the fact is that Haralds teaching is making already a big impact and PMTS.org and PMTS accreditation is only part of the picture.

I just spend $700 on 6 hour ductwork in my attic and I cannot resist commenting the guest on his outrage about Harb Ski system prices.

>>Ha! Less expensive? $150 foot beds? $250 rollerblades? Must travel to Colorado for lessons? Puleeeeeeeeze!

So what is the fair price for foot beds and alignment? Harald has spend long hours working on my Dallbellos. They got more surgery done than Michael Jackson.
Sure we do not want Harald to make us much money as the air-conditioner/heating guy!!
But how much exactly would be fair? I just wanted to know.

How much should Harb Carvers cost? Should he move the small production line for his new invention to China (the way K2 has done)? I bought my first rollerblades (made by Rollerblade automated mass production facilities) in 1992 (they have been already popular and mass produced for couple of years). I spend $180.

>>He's selling equipment out of that very unprofessional dump. It's an embarrassment. It's very bad Public Relations.

Is this not contradictory to complain about how expensive Harb Ski Systems products are and how poor Harb Ski Systems shop looks?


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Postby Jim » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:43 am

Hi, I am one of the frustrated terminal intermediates everybody always refers to. I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the discussion about PMTS and the cost of skiing as a recreation. Over the last eight years I have followed Harald?s writings from Snow Country and Skiing magazines to the books and videos.

I am very fortunate in that I have lived in the Denver metro area for the last 4 years where skiing is relatively inexpensive compared to most areas of the country.

Yet even then, I can?t say that skiing here is cheap. I?m an upper middle class, middle age professional with a family (kids in college!) and basically, the money I spend on a ski pass ($250) and gas for day trips to the mountains pretty much covers my ski budget for the year. I have slowly upgraded my equipment but never all at once ? new skis last year, maybe new boots in a couple of years. I actually have never stayed at a resort for a ?skiing vacation? yet living in Denver I have been able to take 15 ? 20 day trips a year to ski for the past 4 years.

Here?s my point ? If the cost of things like footbeds and private lessons are difficult to justify for me, I can?t imagine how the masses can afford to invest in much more than lift tickets and ski rentals, maybe some initial group lessons.

I agree that the PMTS camps appear to be a bargain even compared to semi-private lessons at any large resort ? yet $600 - $1000 exceeds my budget for 2-3 years of skiing!

Yes, I also might have to spend $700 on ductwork but again with a family, the maintenance budget is whole 'nother different bin than the rec budget!

As someone else stated, the most accessible form of instruction for me has been the PMTS books and videos and but certainly getting someone to critique your technique would be useful feedback. I?m sure I ski better in my mind than I do in real life! :) I feel I have learned a great deal from Harald?s books and videos but the expense of private instruction (PMTS or otherwise) puts it out of reach to me and probably many others like me who want to get better but don?t.
Jim
 

Postby Mr. M » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:29 am

I do agree with Jim's point. I think I was trying to say the same. So far, the books and DVD?s are the most valuable resource out there. Unfortunately, Americans don?t read books. This in my opinion is one of the reasons why this discussion group is so small. Most people look at the personal ski instruction as a "luxury" expense. Getting a ski lesson nowadays is like a box of chocolates. You?ll never know what you going to get. In order to get more instruction going you really need an informed customer base and no one seem to get it. Getting more coaches through PMTS camps at the current rates will not get you there. If you are not spreading your message to the ?voters? they are not going to vote with their dollars. How many PMTS books are sold compared to the pairs of skis sold each year?

On the portable DVD player usage I proposed, I do not agree that it?s a breakable item. Thousands of skiers and riders carry CD players on the slope and nothing happens. CD player and DVD player technically are very similar. Using cell phone is cool, but it would not compare in usability to the fully formatted DVD media.

I also agree with SCSA on making entry lessons free. In fact, Vail lessons are not free -- you have to buy at least one lesson to get more for free. Give people a free DVD and they will love it. They will come back for the REAL instruction and lessons.

I was in Sam's club yesterday and saw them selling a skateboard for $30 or so. IT COMES WITH INTRUCTION DVD INCLUDED! It is obvious that there are alternative ways to promote PMTS rather than direct book/DVD sales. Unfortunately, both PSIA and PMTS.org are locked in the race of selling products directly to the public. It would be peanuts compared to the overall ski manufacturers advertising spending and is really the most effective way to promote sales. Even cheap skateboard manufacturer can afford to give away the DVD. Why HH or PMTS.org cannot work out a deal with the ski manufacturers so that DVD comes with the skis is beyond me.
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Postby Mr. T » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:44 am

Sorry Mr. M
I insists that DVD players (besides being cumbersome) are breakable. I accomplished just that a short time ago. Took a big fall (of course, the only time I was currying the thing) and I realized that even Japanese product are not that sturdy. My cell phone is only a gadget to send students a little movie of themselves to their e-mail addresses to show parents and friends, not a serious teaching tool. Although with a serious skier 10 second can give time to record 4-5 or even 6 turns and learn something from them, I used it to lure back the student after he/she showed family and friends his/her accomplishments.

I think that you are right when you say that ski manufacturers could definitely pair their products with some kind of instruction (be it book, dvd or something else) but I see a problem. The problem is Harald Harb uses Head products and I am sure you will not get Rossi or Volkl or Salomon to give out his videos while he wears Head products. And Head
still has a minimal presence in the USA.

I do not know how much Harald's books sell, however, the fact is that there are only three good books about skiing on the market right now (in this order, in my opinion at least):

Harald's volume 1 and 2
Marc Elling's The Whole Mountain Skier 2nd edition
Lito's Breakthrough on Skis 2nd edition.
Des Lauriers' Ski the Whole Mountain (very good book but aimed at those who can already ski and very well at that).

PSIA volume 1 2 e 3 are basically old (1996) and almost useless. Their stepping stones new manual (2002) is basically only a lot of $$ for such
a small and uninformative book plus they do not sell but through the local PSIA's. So, competition in the field of ski books is not very keen and one could own them all although that means one is really a devoted skier.

Other books do exist and are good for special issues like racing or how
to prepare your own skis. But, again, competition is not very keen.

Let's see why people should not buy them:

Lito's book has very ugly pictures, sometimes you don't understand a thing from those pics. Plus, after you look at Harald's books or Elling's
you wonder if you are reading a book on skiing or a novel with so few
photo sequences or drawings.

Harald's books require too much work for the occasional skier.

Elling's book is also too much work for the occasional skier.

Des Lauriers' book is not for the occasional skier who would probably die
if he or she were to follow that book to the letter and try it on the slopes.

Lito's and Harald's have videos to accompany their books. Lito's video makes all the difference. Harald's video for volume 2 is some of the best
stuff I have seen, yet... it requires dedication to go through videos and trials and errors on the snow.

In the end, I would say, it is the average skier who needs to make the move and go buy books, videos, lessons, or whatever he/she thinks
suitable. But if we start requiring DVD players, books, videos, cell phones
with camera.. I am afraid that most will go bankrupt before skiing parallel.

Let's not forget that the average household income is $50K and that is before taxes, living expenses, mortgage payments, credit card payments, etc... In the end there is not much left for skiing, I am sorry to say. And surely president Bush did not have their skiing in mind when he introduced his tax cuts, which actually may force them to allocate more money for services no longer provided by the government or other.
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PMTS: some experiences....

Postby tommy » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:17 am

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, so maybe a short presentation would be in order, before I jump into the topic of this thread:

I'm 43 years old, living in Sweden, and have unfortunately no experience of skiing in the US. However, the last 5 years or so, I've been doing somewhere around 30+ days/season on the slopes, mainly in Swedish & Italian resorts. Before those 5 years, I had no experience of alpine (?) skiing, but as any kid raised in Scandinavia, I've done my fair share of skiing cross country, ice skating etc. during my childhood. So, I guess it would be reasonable to say that I'm somewhat familiar to snow & winter, but my alpine skiing experience is quite short...

My skiing ablility today is problably intermediate + (it's hard to judge your own ability :-) I'm capable of getting up :-), as well as down, most slopes, regardless snow condition, but not necessarily always with grace and style. Furthermore, since my kids (8 & 10) are doing freestyle snowboarding, I've also done a bit of runs in various skiing/snowboarding fun parks with them, with jumps, half pipes, rails and even (at last days of season, when it's reasonably warm not to get pneumonia :-) some water-surfing, i.e. splashing over a sizable pool of water at the runout. Great fun, until you fall.... :-)

My first contact with PMTS was early spring, last year, when I found the techsupportforskiers.com web site. From there, I found my way to Haralds web site, and had a look at some of the online lessons. Even before trying PMTS, I was able to make carved turns, but *only* if the conditions were right: not too steep, perfect grooming, definitely not icy, and limited amount of traffic on the slope. In particular, if it was hardpack, or icy (which is often the case on the Swedish slopes), any attempts to carve were a definitive no-no for me; whenever I attempted carving in those conditions, the stance ski would immediately loose its grip and shoot down the slope, with the rest of me landing on the inside hip bone :-( And all of this despite the skis being told (by the sales guy) to have "perfect grip on ice", having a perfect (?) tune, with razor sharp edges, bevelled according to the manufacturer's spec's...

During my alpine skiing "career", I've taken numerous lessons, in Sweden as well as in Italy. I have to say that not only were the various lessons (with different teachers) very confusing, since none of them "spoke the same language", and each and every teacher had a very different focus on what and how I would try to do. The lessons furthermore did not in any conceivable way improve my skiing, despite I was really trying to do as told.

In addition, when watching the world cup skiers on TV, it was obvious that the movements the various teachers were telling me to use, are not the movements used by these expert skiers. To make a long story a little bit shorter, I was confused.

This confusion grew even larger, when my kids a couple of years ago joined the local snowboarding team. While they were busy with their training sessions, I had plenty of time to watch the kids in the club's skiing section, doing their training sessions. These kids, aged 6 and up, were definitely not doing any of the movements, nor exercises, that my skiing instructors were telling me to do: on the contrary, these kids were from start thaught to ski in a way which I now, after having some experience with PMTS, easily recognize as "PMTS compatible": moving center of mass, getting to/from edges, doing pure carved turns. Even the exercises they did are those of PMTS: lots of emphasis on balance (not stability!), tilting the free ski, proper hand position, releasing and transfering etc. A regular exercise for these kids was to ride on one ski; they all left one ski at the start of the T-bar, rode up the lift on a single ski, and came blasting down doing linked turns on a single ski!

So, I thought, why do the club's coaches use a totally different model for teaching the kids (of which a majority had not skied for very long) as compared to what I see being thaught to kids, as well as adults, in every ski school ?

So, armed with this confusion, as well as with a printout of a few of the online lessons from Haralds web site, I headed to the slopes. My first attempt was to practice the phantom move, and almost immediately, I could notice how much easier it was for me to get onto the edges, and stay there, even in fairly icy conditions. In fact, using the phantom move, I was able to do some type of carving turns on icy/steep slopes, where I previously couldn't. I believe the reason for this progress was at least partly due to the fact that before I attempted the phantom, the way I initiated (or tried to) a carving turn was to put as much pressure as possible on the big toe edge of the stance ski at the beginning of the turn, and of course, on an icy/steep slope, that ski would almost always slip away.

An other observation I did was that after a full day of skiing, my fatigueness level was fractions of what it used to be.

These positive observations got me really interested in PMTS, so I took contact with Harald, and signed up for a camp last spring. The camp turned out to be a great boost for my skiing: after the stringent alignment session, which revealed that I was substantially misaligned, a pair of custom made foot beds were made. None of the previous instructors had even hinted at any possible alignment problem...

Anyway, after having some significant struggle the first few runs with the new footbeds, I could gradually notice a significant improvement in my skiing during the week the camp lasted. Unfortunately, when the camp was over and done with, the season back home had ended.

So, when this season started, a month or two ago, I was guite anxious to hit the familiar slopes to see what (if any) improvement in my skiing could be detected. And to my great pleasure, I could notice, after a few initial runs, doing some of the basic PMTS exercises, that despite the fact that it was more than 6 months since I last had my skis on, I was able not only to ski even the challenging slopes, but I did it better than ever before, despite *very* icy conditions!

So, whether PMTS is "the only true way to learn to ski" I can't say, but what I can say is that PMTS has dramatically improved my own skiing, with much less effort, and much more bang for the buck than anything I've tried before. And, when I watch those club kids skiing on my "home hill", it's obvious to me that their coaches are teaching PMTS, whether they themselves know it or not.

A final note on the topic of personalities: I can't say that I know neither Harald, Rich nor Diana; yes, I spent a week at camp with them, but that's really not enough to get to know someone. In addition, there were 17 other "students" around, so the opportunity to get to know any of the instructors was limited. Regardless, I'm happy to say that I have never met friendlier, more knowledgeable, more dedicated, more commited to "customer success", and more professional people, in the skiing area, or in any other area, than these three. I definitely got maximum value out of the camp and PMTS, and that, to me, is what's it all about. What their shop might look like, what car make they drive, what clothes they wear, what they look like etc. is to me totally irrelevant. I'm happy with what they have thaught me, and I sincerely hope I get the opportunity to learn more from them.

Cheers,
Tommy

PS: Anja Parsson Rulez!! :-) :-) (just couldn't resist ending with some local bias & "coloring".....) ;-)
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Postby Mr. M » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:28 am

Hi Mr. T,

I think that sooner or later DVD players will be tried is this field. When it will cost below $100 next year and the ski school will rent it for $10 they might just take a gamble and make a good profit. Again it's just my opinion and your point is well taken, so let's not argue about this issue.

On the more important note, if HH has contract with Head, why PMTS.org can not fulfill this role? PMTS.org should be neutral in respect to manufacturers and should be able to approach anybody with no preferences set. Also HH is not the only skier who is capable of producing quality instructin videos, right? If PMTS.org is equal to HH it's too bad, and migth prove the point of some PMTS opponents.
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PMTS SHOULD BE ACCEPTED MUCH WIDER

Postby jclayton » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:37 am

Just a quick note on HH's material . Harald told me when I was there in December that he has no equipment sponsors precisely so he can be unbiased regarding boot and ski reccomendations . I tried some Head chip 160's of his and was knocked out by them . The Head boots I bought have also worked out fine , I tried various others but they didn't fit my foot shape . Strangely it was easier to find a range of Head equipment in Colorado than St.Anton Austria where I have just spent 2 weeks. I couldn't even find a pair of chip 160`s .
It's obvious the real estate developers who seem to control the U.S. resorts have a stranglehold when ticket prices are double Austria's .
Regarding costs of HH's work I always remember the painter Whistlers reply to the question " how can you charge so much for 5 minutes work ?"
answer - " in that 5 minutes is 50 years of expierience and learning "
skinut ,among other things
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Postby -- SCSA » Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:21 pm

It's really great to read about the success of Tommy and others. It's also really great that others besides yours truly -- the one and only PMTS Wacko :P -- are coming forward and voicing their observations, good or bad. It'll only help the cause.

Back to the regularly scheduled programming now... :wink:
-- SCSA
 

Postby -- SCSA » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:17 pm

Hello Bluey, Tommy and Mr. T,

One thing about being a member of such a small group is that it's easy to remember names! :wink:

Ha ha ha. :lol:

It's really great reading your posts. I have to say, you guys have done a much better job then I ever have talking about PMTS, dating back to my now famous "97%" post on epic. :P

Hopefully, we'll see more of us. I know I've turned a lot of people on to PMTS on the chair lift. My buddy is now into it as well. Here's a clip from his last emai:

"Thanks for the info. I can certainly purchase the book, but I would still like to borrow the video. With just the little you already explained to me, I feel so much more in control. I also understand about the right equipment being key. Unfortunately, it's not in the economic forcast right now. Just had to drop 900 bucks getting the maintenance done on my car."

My buddy is a guy whose been skiing the wrong way for years. I'm not even an instructor and I was able to help his skiing in just one day. He's more excited about skiing than ever. :!:

So if those in the ski business are lurking, here's the message. Your biggest asset and your biggest weakness is your ski school. Teach PMTS, and make the first few lessons free, you'll see an increase in your bottom line, I guarantee you. 8)

Be cool,
-- SCSA
 

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