SkierSynergy's topic deserves new thread

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SkierSynergy's topic deserves new thread

Postby Harald » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:46 am

I am about to post a series of articles on the forum, topics such as ?Stance width, and ?Inside ski pull-back.? I had them almost completed and then I saw this post from, Ski Synergy about the Stanford research. Found on page 4 in (Pics from June 04 Mt Hood Race Camp) thread.

I am aware of this research and so is Bob Hintermeister. Bob knows Dr. Tom Andriacchi. We have discussed the same topic and come to the same conclusions, on a number of occasions. In fact, my conclusions after studying the biomechanics of the flexed leg, is that the hamstring muscles when the feet are hip width and the knee flexed below fifteen or twenty degrees, contribute to adduction. Bob confirmed that this is a strong possibility. Most biomechanics texts will attest that the hamstrings contribute to internal rotation after a certain point of flexion. What this means is that there is strong rotary force available to twist the skis, but you really have to honker down to get it. If a skier learns that this is an acceptable method he?ll use it, especially when he gets into difficult situations or when in trouble.

The two articles I was working on are now even more relevant given the latest posts on the topics of wide stance and low hips. Before I post them I offer this evaluation.

The following, again, will be conceived by the PSIA gang, as a pat on our backs, but here goes. I have been writing that a wide stance, leg steering, and rotary movements are bad particularly for beginners and learning skiers, for the past ten years.

When in a wide stance and legs flexed, hips low, the skis need that much more leverage to turn; this force is generated from the bigger muscles higher on the body. You can easily see the image of the wedge stance skier that cranks the skis with forceful leg movements against a resisting base. The torque goes directly into the knees.

In my books and courses we call the femur rotation muscles ?the bad-ductors?, as they are the muscles that internally rotate and adduct the femurs creating steering, skidding, rotation and knock-kneed skiers.

Learning with the wide stance and leg steering is not only damaging to your skiing, but to your body. In fact, that?s what began my riff with PSIA. I was adamant that a system directed by leg steering was a bad learning progression, and it was damaging to your knees and other joints.

Also, the wedge and wedge Christie are difficult to accomplish without steering, so they are stuck with the steering dilemma. They would need to revamp their whole certification program to achieve a change in their ski instruction. That won?t happen!

I know PSIA instructors will come out swearing that they do not teach this approach.
I can already see their response to this post, ?It?s just Harald Harb trying to promote himself again.?

The point is, it doesn?t matter what you don?t think you are teaching, the results created by teaching rotary movements and leg steering are flat unnecessary in this modern era, with the understanding and tools we have. In PMTS, we shun rotary movements in favor of foot and ski tipping, even with tipping movements, we often see excessive steering.

This isn?t promotion or marketing it is reality, we are offering skiing fun and efficiency. I know, I won?t change PSIA, that?s evident, but if I can reach and influence even a few thousand skiers, it?s worth the effort.

PSIA will never concede that they are on the wrong track with the wide stance, and steering emphasis.

They are forced to take this position, as at this point they would lose credibility if they reversed themselves. They lost all credibility with me years ago. They are now trying to move away from their teachings by allowing all systems to be taught under the PSIA banner. The problem is that their certification process is based on the steering movement emphasis. All instructors have to study this program and duplicate it to become certified. It has been documented time and time again that what has been studied and certified, will be taught by instructors.

They will resist making these essential changes, as it would force most of their examiners, trainers and instructors to start over and learn a new approach to skiing. To many people, too invested and in decision making positions.

Postby *SCSA » Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:03 pm

Harald is on fire!

I was on the gang-rm site the other night. It's a good site, offers lots of stuff.

But in reading through it all, I found that the gang is doing all they can, to avoid using HH's lingo. They talk about tipping, but they don't complete the loop by talking about the little toe, big toe, like HH and company does.
An informed he/she/it can see that they've adopted some of HH's lingo -- probably due to the anti-hh being so prominent over there. Tipping, is now a big word for them, so is relaxing and flexing. Direct to Parallel is now mentioned.

The only one that's losing here is the consumer of ski instruction. Self interest is keeping the Primary Movements from the public and that's pathetic.

Gang leader, pounding fist on table:

"No! We can't teach PMTS. I don't care how well it works. I don't care if the books are #1 in the world! Harald hurt our feelings -- screw Harald and the rest of those #$%^^. We'll just fix up what we already have, shine it all up and call it....what should we call it?. And we're never gonna quit teaching the wedge, damn it. The wedge is what we're all about here. We been teaching it for years, since the beginning!."

Gawd, they're so proud of the wedge and it's ugly step sister, the wedge christy. They should change their pins -- put a siloette of a skier doing the wedge on it. :wink:

The whole thing is silly -- they're trying to reinvent the wheel. There's a well documented system that explains the Primary Movements in full detail, top to bottom; it comes with books, videos, and training aids. It's called PMTS. So instead of doing the smart thing, licensing PMTS, they waste time beating around the bush, trying to patch up their thang, whatever you wanna call it.


Postby Harald » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:37 pm

SCSA, part of the reason they don't use our lingo is because they are afraid of gettung sued. I told them they could have all of our materails as long as they attribute it to where it comes from, but they are so insecure that they won't ask.

Postby piggyslayer » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:44 am

I think the biomechanics research described by SkierSynergy and Harald is relevant to what powerlifters know about squat. Squat involves both quads and hamstrings.
Wide-stance squat is a popular especially among powerlifters since it reduces the distance that the weight needs to travel. However it has to be done with feet pointing outward. If you try to keep you feet parallel in a wide stance squat you will exert a lot of stress on you knee.

Here is what Dr Squat (Dr. Fred Hatfield, author of
?Power, scientific approach? and many other powerlifting, nutrition, BB, and related books; and the guy who squatted 1014 pounds which was World record!!!) says:

Extract from
The quadriceps muscles can contract more efficiently when the feet are pointing slightly outward. They should NEVER point straight ahead. If you squat with a very wide stance, your adductors tend to assist the quads. This can result in stress to the medial collateral ligament, abnormal cartilage loading, and improper patellar tracking.

I am sure I can produce more of similar statements since I own some of his books.
Piggy Slayer
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Postby Harald » Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:44 pm

You and Dr Squat are absolutely right. This phenomenon is known to most bio-mechanists. PSIA doesn't understand how the body works in skiing that's why they continue to use ridicules and damaging, contradicting teaching approaches. They didn?t even invent what they use; it came right out of George Joubert?s leg rotation, combined with avalement. But PSIA discarded the Avalement part during the early parts of their progressions, as most students can?t flex that deeply. They continue to use up un-weighting or as they call it rising. Unfortunately leg rotary is very weak from a high position. It is for this reason so many skiers are confused by their approach. It is totally contradictory from a biomechanical or scientific point of view.

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