Pics from June 04 Mt Hood Race Camp

PMTS Forum

Postby *SCSA » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:49 pm


Do you follow this stuff? The reason why I ask is that you seem to have a very good understanding of great turns. I'm not sure I've seen anything written outside of PMTS that describes turns the way you did.

Nice job.

Where do you ski?

Postby *SCSA » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:58 pm


It's not that I think HH or Di are the world's greatest. But I just haven't skied with anyone who makes better turns. I ski at Vail and the Beav (aka "The Big Show"), with the best here in the valley. While these he/she/its are fast -- and they are fast -- technically, most of them just don't make great turns. "Casper the-not-so-friendly-Ghost" makes the best turns of all, but he's kinda weak in the bumps. Mango Jerry makes great turns, but same thing -- kinda weak in the bumps.

Like I say. I watch the instructors at the Big Show, I ski with them when possible. They all make great turns on groomers, but when you up the ante, A frame city.

There is one guy -- I skied with Scott Strickland at Highlands, 2 years ago. He was keeping parallel shins on Deception, a friggin tough run; steep, big bumps. Scott, is all world. He might be the best all mountain skier I've skied with.


Postby *SCSA » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:22 pm


A few more notes.

If you watch Lito's "Breakthrough on the new skis", Kim McDonald is in there. She's A framing big time. People get all excited about her, but I think her turns are just average. Isn't she on the demo team? HH's and Jerry Berg's turns are way better -- the best in the video.

The anti-hh makes nice turns too, but he/she/it is always on the shorties. So even though the anti-hh makes nice turns, I always have to put an asterisk by them, because of shortie factor.

HH makes great turns on normal length skis.

Every year at the Big Show, the gang shows up to do their testing. The gang leaders, are examiners I guess. I've always tried to time it so I can ski a run with them, watch their turns. It never works out, because they all stand around all the time.

But this year, I did see one of them making turns under Chair 11. They were nice turns, but I didn't get to watch he/she/it on the more technical part of the run.

So don't get sideways here.
Fer sure, there's others who make great turns -- I just haven't had the opportunity to see them. I'd like to. So if you're making great turns all over the mountain, let me know. I'd like to train with you.



Postby Bodie » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:13 pm

There seems to be a preoccupation with ?A? frame here. Harald shows some at high speed, in high energy, turns. At high speed and in very dynamic turns the best skiers (world cup) demonstrate some ?A? frame, even I do, so does my buddy Von Greunigen. Posers don't show an ?A? frame because they don?t get their butts down close enough to the snow with a totally extended outside leg. Parallel leg shafts are a nice concept based on good mechanics. But put it in perspective, it isn't the best thing for all out ripping, because that position holds you from higher angles. If you understand World Cup skiing you will see ?A? frames all over the place at high speed. You will also see bowed legs. One thing Harald is not and that is a POSER. I am sure Harald can demonstrate perfectly matched parallel leg shafts posing on blue runs at fifteen miles per hour.
I notice great boot/ski separation in Harald?s skiing in these turns, vertical separation is not the same as a wide stance. If you look closely you will notice the knee in the slope with a long extended outside leg.

Posers are the ones that cruise around at 15 mph, on short skis on Green and Blue slopes.

Purpose of the pics and videos

Postby SkierSynergy » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:40 pm

I have enjoyed that people have looked at the pics and videos from Mt. Hood. However, I should make a comment about their content and purpose.

As we skied, I occasionally took pictures and video using my still camera. They were just that: amateur pics during camp sessions and carving with variuos friends. Initially, I posted them so that people in the camps could easily get some pics for themselves. I decided to tell the forum about the site because some people might be coming to Hood and want to see what it looks like this year; some might enjoy seeing some videos of skiing during the camps; and some people might be interested seeing what the Harb Carvers are like. I hope they are taken in that spirit. Just sharing and fun.

I would hesitate trying to analyze the skiing in them too much or draw big conclusions about anything -- like who is better than who (actually, who cares). They do represent typical skiing between exercises during the camp and among friends on beautiful summer days on the Palmer, but they were taken prettty randomly and noone was trying to perfectly demonstrate anything or take it to the limit.

I am not saying that one cannot make useful observations (or sincere criticism and suggestions) of any of the ski or carver action on the videos I provided. I am just suggesting that they be taken for what they are. Watch them an then decide to come out to Timberline and go summer skiing; watch them and decide to try out a set of Harb Carvers or some other training device; watch them and get more excited about the coming season; watch them and get ideas about how you want to change YOUR OWN skiing to get better;, or just watch them and enjoy.

PS. I'll try to take a few pics from the Master's Summer Fun Nationals and post them for anyone interested.

Jay Peterson -- Get off your couch and come on out to Hood!!! If not now, when??????

Postby *SCSA » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:39 am


way to go. Keep posting those pics -- I know I enjoy them a bunch. They also get me psyched to make some turns.

Thanks again,

Postby *SCSA » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:44 am


I think you're a poser. I see pictures of you in magazines, bare chested, George Michael look redux.

What I don't see, is you posing on the podium. Bode, you're the greatest thing that never was. You can go on and on about how great you are, nothing but whooey. You start winning some races, then, you can talk.

Until then, keep posing in those fashion shoots. If you can't make any dough ray me in ski racing, you might as well try and make a few bucks as a poser.

Postby lurker » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:34 am


I'm commenting only on the skiing. Having never tried the carvers, and this being the first time I've ever seen them used, I am not qualified to comment on them.

The minor a-frame thing I am seeing happens after the belly of the turn. It is tied into the slight change of stance width.

Largely, I think that these turns are just Harald skiing to have fun rather than having any thought about 'demos'. In that kind of situation where you are just doing it, movement patterns that have 40 years of repitition behind them are likely to creep back in and affect patterns that only have eight years of reps behind them.


I've been focusing on skiing by actions of the feet and actions of the inside feet in particular for over 12 years. When I started relaxing to release and flexing through the transition other instructors commented that I was doing something 'funky' with my hips. I read Harald's first two books when they came out and added some of his ideas to mine.

What's sad to me isn't that some instructors get PMTS wrong its that 90% of them have never heard of it. Most instructors have next to no understanding of what a powerful tool accurate use of the inside foot is.

On the a-frame thing. Many racer types show a little a-frame. There can be a couple reasons for this. One is that they learned when it was part of high level racing technique. Another is that when you get your hip down to within a few inches of the snow and have a long strong outside leg parallel leg shafts are impossible, you just move your inside leg where you have to to get it out of the way.

I ski the resorts in the SLC area. DV is my home resort and it and Alta are my favorites. I'd love to make some turns with you if we are ever in the same area.


The comment about Harald looking like an ex-racer was not a criticisim. Ex-racers are some of the best skiers on any mountain but many of them do have movement patterns that make them easy to identify as having a strong racing background.

They go fifteen miles an hour and all look the same. Golf carts or ski instructors? Unfortunately, this old joke is too true in many cases, but not all. I get to ski with some of the best skiing instructors in the world with backgrounds from purely recreational to ex-racers with WC experience. They are all great skiers.


I started this post yesterday before Bodie's and Jay's posts. I'm putting it up now for what its worth.

Masters still ski fast

Postby Eddy » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:17 am

I am not a PSIA or PMTS advocate; I am an ex-racer and now a master?s racer. I used to race FIS and I raced in college. All I know is what it takes to go fast, which puts all the subjective comments about skiing aside, because they mean nothing. The clock never lies. I have been racing for almost thirty-five years, and had intense racing training when I was a junior in the east. What I saw last season surprised me, as I had never seen it before. Diana Rogers, beat all the men at a Masters race in Rocky Mt. This was a full length FIS course, not an instructor?s race. Diana has been racing for three years and didn?t begin until she was thirty some years old. Something that Harald coaches is obviously working. I know he does a lot of boot and footbed work, but what Diana does is not just equipment.

I also know that Harald is still fast in the gates. I attended his fall Masters Camp. He jumps in the gates every once and a while, and all eyes are on him. He skis like a thirty year old.

At Telluride, even without training, he was often within one tenth of a second of young pro racers and National Masters Champions. Those who don?t race have not the understanding of what it takes to perform at these levels. Lurker, be realistic, Harald raced on the world cup with the Canadian National Team. This requires athletic ability most people don?t have and at a level of skiing you can?t possibly understand.

I ski with some very good instructors; they can not come close to putting down the times in a race course that Harald or Diana can produce. In regular skiing this doesn?t show up because the requirements to develop angles and forces as needed in racing are not there. Don?t be fooled buy free skiing video, as I know both Harald and Diana can bring it, when it?s needed. Why do you think Harald could still made the Demo Team in his forties, he out skied all the best instructors in the country, most twenty years younger. I know that Diana can do the same.

Postby Ott Gangl » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:40 am

Eddy, I respect what you are saying about racing and about HH and DR being great racers, etc. but what's the point?

Primary Movement TEACHING System is supposed to be a teaching system and just because the originators of the system are exceptional athletes, does that automatically translate into that students of the system will likewise achive these levels or anything near them.

You learned to ski as has Harald and all the other great skiers with the systems in place at the time and did OK, but like all excellent skiers, you implimented what was right for YOU and experimented with elaborations and if they worked made them your own, if the inspiration for them came from the outside or originated with you.

One can't just doggedly follow any rigid system past a certain point of skill level, instructors, like golf carts, try to ski alike in class so that any student who took a lesson in the East can get a continuation in the West without having to unlearn anything, in essence, they all use the same text book.

Most advanced instructors don't ski anything like that when free skiing.

Ott Gangl
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:16 pm
Location: Ohio, USA via Bavaria

Postby Guest » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:07 pm

Dear Otto,

If I didn?t make myself clear enough, I think my point was that you can?t judge a great skier?s skiing potential by a clip of video alone, as some posters here tried to do. I also suggest that Harald and Diana are exceptional skiers who have obviously put a tremendous amount of work into their skiing. I know Harald has been coaching Diana with his techniques for the last ten years. Diana is only a part time racer, but she has passed many much younger racers who train full time. I think if she was an exceptional athlete or skier, she would have discovered so earlier in her career, as she skied for many years before being coached by Harald. I believe she was a fully certified ski instructor before she began racing. Harald?s techniques have made the difference.

Ski instructors also put in a lot of time in, but not to become exceptional in most cases. They seem to want to perfect some sort of look or position.

If you see Harald ski on any mountain, you will see a completely free, wide open style. He may show different styles or techniques every other turn. Also, if you put Harald on a blue slope with posers trying to do specific exercises, there might be very little to differentiate them. But, Harald has a lot more upside than these types of skiers. What looks like a good skier on Blue groomed, changes very quickly when speed, steep and variable snow take over.

Postby Eddy » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:09 pm

Otto, the last post was me responding to your comments. Sorry forgot to enter my name.

Postby Ott Gangl » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:37 pm

Ott Gangl
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:16 pm
Location: Ohio, USA via Bavaria

Postby lurker » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:43 pm


Why do you say I can't possibly understand the level of skiing it takes to compete on a national team at the WC level? Seems like you are making a sweeping judgement of a person based on next to no information about that person.

Postby *SCSA » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:52 am

Morning lurker,

Way cool.
You're on!

My buddy just bought a place in SLC. I'm only 5 1/2 hours away (I live in Eagle), so I'll be going there a few times to make turns this winter. I'll look you up.

Be cool,


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