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PMTS Forum

Postby milesb » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:21 pm

The Anti HH :lol: :lol:
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Postby Fred Watkins » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:23 pm

I have lurked here for a while.

Let's be real honest. TTS is a term Harb created to describe PSIA teaching. In so doing it was a marketing ploy. Tradition connotes old. Non-traditional connotes something new or out of the ordinary.

Again, the manner it is used is to disparage the traditional and promote PMTS.
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Postby John Mason » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:03 pm

Congrats SCSA!! You are about to enter a new phase of life!

No more TT - the 4's got more room - and you'll be needing more room!

On the skiing technical note - here is an article to read regarding what I was referring to weight shift.

Shifting weight done in the correct fashion creates tipping and absolutly does result in a carved turn. But, as in all things forum speak it's easy to talk past each other.

Here is the link:

http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages ... ion05.html

The relevant quote from the article:

?I?d say all you really have to do is get off your old stance foot. Everything else flows from that. That?s all you have to do! When I ski that?s all I really think about, getting off the old foot. I don?t need to think of engaging the new outside ski, because it just happens.?

Another link - to Lito's way of describing "early weight shift" or what HH describes as the Super Phantom or as Eric and Rob introduces in their book Ski the Whole Mountain on page 35 in the "The I can't believe it's so easy to turn drill". All three are describing the same movement and this movement pattern ensures a carved turn even from the top of the turn. It's also the same movement pattern that on Epic is most often clearly misunderstood and just underscores ignorance when they think it's a move back up the hill. That just proves they don't have a clue and have not experienced this basic drill in their own skiing. (otherwise they would not think or could not say this move makes you go back up the hill as a negative movement - they don't understand when it occurs - emphasize "early weight shift" - as in before the body has finished coming over the feet. Gosh - I get tired of reading the perhaps 100rd's of posts showing nobody got this when SCSA tried on Epic a few years ago.)

http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages ... ion07.html

It's interesting the comments on "book learning" etc as another way of saying that the detractors have not read those books. Some of these posters are so gobbled up in their anti-HH'ness that they fail to respond to what I keep bringing up - which is that there are 3 very popular authors (a 4th if you include Craig McNeil (but Craig's is straight PMTS)) that all differ from the PSIA normally taught stuff and are totally in sync with what makes PMTS different. HH in his books does just plops it out there as dogma. Lito explains and reasons much more. Eric and Rob are in the middle. But it's all the same style of skiing being taught and the same movement patterns.

I don't just read books but ski a lot too. I see lots of logical contradictions and problems with what is traditionally taught. You might get to "zen" at some point but it's a terribly indirect route. And, in spite of some people's opinions (I'm not referring to you Ott), the end result and styles are not the same in many cases. (like my two friends that have skied for decades but can't execute short radius carved turns)

This being the PMTS forum, this is where we present technique and ideas and our own progress and discoveries. I find it fascinating the number of Ad-hominem type attacks from the people that don't bother to identify themselves in any meaningful fashion.

I would tend to agree with the Lito/HH discussion posted above that the more effiecient non-rotary ways of skiing and teaching are going to come from the bottom up. The nay-sayers popping up in here now and then keep confirming it certainly won't come from the top. (though I don't know what's up the b*tt on the Rocky Mountain division, the NW division is much more with it)

Weight shift - release and transfer - in fact - early weight shift - a great way to carve a turn from the top to the bottom. (doesn't work with a stance that's too wide so if your stance is like shoulder width apart don't bother with these drills as you won't discover what these authors or I are talking about)

Once again - way to go SCSA!! (I've got my first grandchild (a boy) comming sometime around July 22nd.)

I hear there is a carver camp and palmer field ski camp in July on Mt hood. Any details or way to contact people? Send me a private on info whomever can help. Thx!
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Postby John Mason » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:20 pm

Fred Watkins wrote:I have lurked here for a while.

Let's be real honest. TTS is a term Harb created to describe PSIA teaching. In so doing it was a marketing ploy. Tradition connotes old. Non-traditional connotes something new or out of the ordinary.

Again, the manner it is used is to disparage the traditional and promote PMTS.

Might be. ATS would have been accurate and changing "American" to "Traditional" implys old vs new - new being implied as better.

If you follow the links I provided that no one from the "card carrying camp" have said were incorrect or not representative of TTS, then there is much more going on here then simply marketing ploys.

What was described in the ATS levels 1 through 9 as a learning progression and what the PSIA certs 1 through 3 describe in the links is different in content and skiing philosophy then the "newer" stuff presented by Lito,Harold, Eric and Rob in the books I have already referenced above.

ATS and PMTS are not describing the same way to ski. As my just prior post pointed out, the key move to all three books - what Harold calls the super phantom is usually dismissed as a negative movement by the "PSIA card carriers" which is just one example that either they don't understand or people are talking past each other or they actually ski a different way. The super phantom done correctly is not a negative movement but becomes the normal bread and butter movement pattern. It teaches early weight shift to the LTE of the inside foot before it becomes the outside foot while the upper body smoothly moves down the hill. They misunderstand this move and think it's a step up the hill. Just makes me nuts at the level of misunderstanding on this very basic move. (which was also the move I was taught by PSIA NW - whats up with Rocky Mountain Division)
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:46 am

Congrats SCSA and good luck with your Baby Project. :) :)
Last edited by piggyslayer on Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:48 am

>>> It teaches early weight shift to the LTE of the inside foot before it becomes the outside foot while the upper body smoothly moves down the hill. They misunderstand this move and think it's a step up the hill.<<<

John, that's exactly it. What the 'other side' calls a negative move is when you step up to the uphill edge of the inside foot and balance over it and THEN move your body down the hill, rolling your ski onto it's new edge.

I think what you are talking about, and what has been done for fifty years, at least, is a push off, where the weight never balances over the uphill edge of the inside ski, the body does not move uphill and the ski rolls imidiatly onto its new edge as weight transfers. That is a positive move and was utilized by racer and advanced skiers on the older skis as it is today.

The misunderstanding comes from talking about moving weight onto the 'little toe edge' or the uphill ski, which actually does not happen, it is just an intent since the ski goes flat and onto it's new edge as the body flows downhill and the edge bites, regaining the skiers equilibrium.

PSIA, in contrast to PMTS, now advocates keeping both skis on the snow, allowing the body to flow downhill which automtically rolls the skis onto their new edges and weight transfer HAPPENS as a result of bracing against the outside ski in the turn. Or some such. :)

We all do the same thing, we just call it by a different name.

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Postby Guest » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:23 pm

Please try NOT to confuse John with fact, Ott, his mind is not open to that idea.

Wedeln is an edging drill in his world.

Postby Bluey » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:24 pm

SCSA & Mrs SCSA.....
Wonderful news for you both....it's a great life experience.....enjoy the moments like these, they'll fill your life with great times & memories...... Congratulations.


As an aside, it's funny how babies make the difference between TTS & PMTS fall more easily into perspective....but its always surprising how much emotion this kind of debate generates........Ott makes a lot of good points and I think there's room enough on the slopes for all of us......even if some of our egos, on both sides, are larger than others......of course, none of this amounts to a hill of beans in the overall scheme of things....I think if we start with the objective of fun ( &, for the more serious,..respect )...the rest will seem to follow.

As a last aside, I'm off skiing with the family, at last, at Perisher for 2 weeks.... back about the 13th.....keep the fires burning....
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:11 pm

SCSA, why can't I leave you a PM? ..Ott
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Postby *skier_j » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:41 am

Congrats on the baby thing!

In a few years he/she/it will enjoy the tree house!

New car choice----minivan! :P :P

Good Description Ott

Postby John Mason » Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:35 am

That's a good description, Ott. I think the problem some people have as they pounce on the super phantom as a negative move is it's easy to mis-understand. The weight is not so much shifted to the inside uphill ski at the end of the turn but simply happens as a result of removing pressure from the outside ski at the end of the turn. This throws you into the new turn.

In the early stages of learning the move and to prevent twisting the ski habbits both Lito and HH and Eric/Rob teach some specific drills to get people to understand that you don't have to steer that outside ski to get the new turn going. Once you experienced the carved turn from the top of the turn and move on to the weighted release as HH teaches it or soft release as Lito teaches it, both feet are on the ground and turn initiation is done by a controlled collapse of the old outside stance leg at the bottom of the turn while also tipping that outside leg/new inside leg for the new turn. Then by the time the body finishes moving over the skis (the fun float phase) the body is all set and in position to take on the forces of the new turn.

Anyone notice, the carvers don't have any "rebound". They are not like my 6 stars at all in that regard.

I might be going to Hood in July for a few days. Anyone wanna go? It would be the week of 12th for a few days or on either weekend.

(and if you really want to have some fun, there is a Masters Camp for a week at Hood with spots still open in August - not PMTS, but not in conflict with it either. As Ott correctly points out nothing in PMTS is "new" as the movement patterns have been used in racing for years.)

Here is a link to pics from the Masters Camp at Hood from last summer - fun things every evening:

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Phantom move

Postby *skier_j » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:01 pm

John, I'm trying to keep an open mind to what this is all about and I read something like you describing the TTS crowd as defining the "Phantom Move" (tm) as a "dead end" move.

Quite the opposite from what I have read. I have never seen the term "Dead End" "anymove" described anywhere EXCEPT in HH's material---or more precisely---by an HH advocate describing the reason his philosophy is the better view---To get away from Dead End moves like "Rotary" and "Steering" etc.

I don't think phantom move is a dead end move at all. I just don't think it is THE move to better overall expert skills.

I think you have to pick and choose what fits YOUR learning style, level of fitness, INTENT, conditions and Karma!

Then you need to practice that which fits YOUR needs at the time.

skier_j - just do a search on Epic

Postby John Mason » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:34 pm

just do a search on Epic on negative movements and you'll see lots of times people have posted mis-understanding this move - even if they do this move themselves.

HH calls them dead end moves - over on Epic the most popular term is negative movements.

As always - one of the biggest problems in discussing PMTS in general is there appears to be lots of history between PSIA and HH. That's why I've always tried to bring the discussion to a broader discussion of what is similar/same as PMTS as these other similar sources help to more fully define the logic and reasoning.

Of course, the other problem with forums is words describing dynamic changing movements. Just look up steering on Epic and look at the varied ways people use or hear the term.

Even in Lito's book was he describes his version of the super phantom, he describes it in oppisite ways, both equivilant, just to make sure people understand what he is talking about. He goes from Stand on the Uphill ski at the end of the last turn - or - better (as he puts it) remove the weight from the old outside ski (which automatically puts your weight on the uphill ski - but is better for ensuring the student continues smoothly down the hill). I thought Ott's description was one of the best I've heard.

Of coure the discussion started on what was TTS. I posted 2 links outlining the ATS system that is usually referred to when PMTS's say TTS. But as I pointed out since I'm not PSIA and you can't buy the material at the local bookstore, I threw out those links for people in the know to confirm or not if that is still what is taught. I only know from my start in that program that the early part was the same and from many people that have come to PMTS camps and were going through that same progression. PMTS's moves may be old as the hills at least from the racing background, but it's focused approach and set of drills is much different than presented in the links I posted.

Then other say well they teach better stuff now, but I don't see any material that lines out what the better stuff is. And people continue comming to the camps and do not speak that much has changed.

But, enough of this. I'm turning over a new leaf. I for one will no longer bash the ATS system or TTS or people that want to focus on movements of their weighted outside leg or people that think you turn the skis to turn the skis or adjust the shape of the turn by such rotary actions. Instead if people have a question about PMTS to get clarifications I'll share from my own limited experience.

Ott - this may ring a bell (I think it was once in a rant to SCSA actually) - my beloved Schauzer had a major FCE event (like a stoke of the spinal cord) and I'll be taking him up to PT's for some hydro treadmill thearpy. So I won't have time to partake in all the ridiculus sniping like people that pop in here to do ad-hom attacks and at the same time saying whats the point of discussing technique. What a waste of time. Ott - I think it was your cat.

We pick up the little guy tomorrow and hopefully will be heading to Chicago. Jay - MT Hood may have to wait depending on budget. I should know next week.

SCSA - hope things keep going well. My neice lost a couple and now is at 4 months with her so she is out of the woods. That's a tough thing. Much more important than any Ski bs. Keep us posted and let me know what kinda toy the tike might like when I get back over that way in December. It was great skiing with you and Hobbit. Dakota still talks all the time about that trip. (Though some day you'll have to tell me what happened to Warren. Did you guys get him going to fast? I had him in control with me. It was only his second day skiing after all. He tells me hints about some nasty fall he had, but I get the impression it was a doosy.)

Well - tata to the forum for a while. I'll check in when life settles down a bit.
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Postby *skier_j » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:31 am

John, you are right, negative move is the term bandied about.

You go take care of what needs your time now---hope all works out well.

Postby *SCSA » Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:30 am

Mornin all!

Hey thanks for the kind words. Keep a ptex candle lit for us!

97.2 knows my email.

You coming out to CO this summer? If so, let's go for a hike or somethin.

Be cool all,


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