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Mechanic - is this what you mean?

Postby John Mason » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:43 pm

Mechanic - a question:

Turn to tip sounds impossible to some, but I may have a resolution. At least it generates a question:

1. When you turn to tip - by this do you mean foot movements, which while in a carve would be pretty impossible


2. Do you "steer or point" your knees into the new turn? Pointing your knees into the new turn is one type of "external cue" that results in the feet tipping. Tipping the feet also point the knees into the new turn. Neither of these movements are "steering" the way people here are thinking of it. When I hear the phrase active steering I'm hearing and thinking point your toes in the direction of the new turn.

In anycase pointing your toes or tipping your feet or pointing your knees into the new turn are all fundementally differently than the Phantom move as Harold Harb describes it or Phantom Edging as Lito Tejeda Flores describes it or the movement patterns Eric and Rob DesLauriers describe in their book.

So when you say you steer to tip, what do you mean? I'm thinking it may be what Eric and Rob describe as the "Parallel Christie"

On page 32 of their book they have a section called "Old Habits". To paraphrase they say basically a 2nd movement to avoid is turning the ski at the top of the turn in the release to initiate the new turn and that this has been taught for years as the Parallel Christie. They then go through the reasons why this is not the best way to turn then present the Phantom Move.

If it's twisting by foot action at the release point in the turn to get the new turn going I would guess this is the movement pattern you may be describing.
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Ott - I never taught the 300 lb fellow

Postby John Mason » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:00 pm

Ott - I never taught the 300 lb fellow. But my nephew and brother-in-law were doing pretty well. (though Warren (my brother in law)) did fine on all the blues at Nubs Nob after a couple of hours, at A-basin he also did fine from the very top on his 2nd day of skiing. But I was skiing with him and coaching him to keep his turns going to keep his speed under control. Later, while I was working with his son, SCSA took him up with my son and apparently they let him get going too fast for his ability at that point. He had some nasty falls. But thanks for the compliment even if backhanded and sarcastic. I actually did do a pretty good job with those two people.

In Warrens case he had 2 pretty strong advantages going for him.

1. He has roller bladed a lot
2. He is very naturally aligned.

He was able to competently move through the PMTS progession where I had no chance until I was aligned. (cause I'm both Asymetrical and way off)

I re read your post and noted you know people at perfect north. I can take off during the week so it won't be jammed. One thing I still don't like in skiing is crowds. I can control where I'm going, but a slope of clueless newbies (and I've been there done that) is always interesting. Perfect North, when really crowded on the Weekend isn't a whole lot of fun. (of course you can do their itsy bitsy short tree runs, as they are never crowded, but they are so short their longer blues (gosh - can we call them blues - at copper they'd be greens) are about the only thing worth the lift time over there. But - sure - it'd be fun.
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Hi Ott

Postby John Mason » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:38 pm

Ott - that would be great. When I was Holiday Valley there were so many people from Akron I got the impression it was the closest decent place to ski.

I'm not an instructor - obviously. But you certainly have a point that I'm am a student of the game trying to improve my skiing and thus have more fun at it.

It is so much better to get with a competent instructor out on the hill then trying to pick this stuff up on a forum. These types of tit for tat discussions for many might be useless or worse confusing. Over on Epic where many that participate in the technique area are actually instructors - unlike here where we are mostly lay people - its even more confusing because they all seem to disagree with each other even as though are all instructors.

Last week there was a discussion about race technique vs traditional instruction Nolo started and a big theme that came out between the instructor crowd was can you teach balance or not. This seemed so odd for me with my background with race type and then PMTS type instruction as balance was the whole game. If you want to ski better you need to be able to dynamically balance while you ski. With balance you can ski by efficient and small movements that then cascade to riding the mountain rather than muscling your way through turns. It was just odd that there was little agreement on what seemed to me a pretty fundemental issue.

But I still think these discussions are useful for any lay person interested in technique and improving their own technique. But you are correct that most people on the forums or skiing do not try to become students of the sport. They don't have and have studied Witherall's, LeMasters, books and taking lots of instruction. Most skiers just ski. Every now and then some skiers might have a lesson or might take a camp. I have had 3 private lessons and 3 camps in my first year of sking. So I'm an odd bird compared to most skiers.

But I love skiing and want to continue to improve. What makes me nuts is the fact I only just started this sport and I'm almost 50. I grew up in Batavia just a couple hours from Holiday Valley and had not clue. I've done lots of sports but nothing - nothing comes close to the enjoyment I get skiing. I'm truely hooked.

You do make a great point about all the various ways to make a turn. The check turn is what many on Epic say some PMTS's do. At my current PMTS development, I'm resorting to what I think may be a check turn whenever I get in past 45 degrees of slope. If I do my normal carving stuff - well - it's not something I do at that pitch. (and its hard to find 45 plus degrees at most resorts but if you find it most people that carve a lot won't be doing their normal cruising carve down that slope)

I think the focus on PMTS is to get people to an efficient balanced way of skiing in a direct progression. PMTS can do turns that are not Carved as well. Eric and Rob's book bring this out over and over how the phantom move is the same move even when they are hop turning as it puts the body into the correct position for the landing. So in their minds its pretty universal for all mountain skiing.

I'm sure a Holiday Valley trip will include two of my friends. One is my brother that just started skiing last year. He is my older brother so is immune to instruction from me so he still needs a lot of work. My other friend is in charge of the Choir at grove city college. He skies feet right together like "Stein". (obviously he has skied a long long time) We can do like last time and rent a condo. If you got some more people we can get a big condo!

So, now that I'm all droolling about skiing again, what's the best place to ski in s america? Argentino? Chili?
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Postby skier_j » Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:09 am

all I asked was what is TTS?

Here we go again :shock:
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Postby mechanic » Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:14 am


Much like Ott I can ski using a broad variety of movement patterns. Ott has experienced many of these movement patterns because he was there as skiing evovled and terchnique changed to adapt to changing equipment and styles. I've always been very curious and been willing to try most any movement and observe what effect it has on my skiing. Because of this I don't look at any of the many ways to get my skis and I to turn as wrong. Some are more efficent than others and some are more fun and the efficent ones are not necessarily the most fun ones.

I can turn to tip with the turn focus coming from the feet, the knees, the femurs, the trunk of my body, my sholders,my whole body,etc. I don't use most of these movements a whole lot in my everyday skiing because I ski most efficently by focusing on precise, small movements originating in my feet. I guess that what I am trying to do is get you to broaden your outlook on skiing and understanding of how different movements affect the outcome of the turns. When you ski with Ott ask him to show you Arlberg technique and reverse shoulder and try them yourself. Try weleling (sp), even this tip pivioted, skiddy to an edge set move will contribute to your becoming a better skier.

Everything that Ott ever learned to turn wooden skis with leather boots still works to turn modern skis with high-tech plastic boots. This fact that old technique works with new equipment is actually part of the problem that you often comment on, many instructors still teach what they taught before the advent of shaped skis. Why do they do this instead of trying the new ideas? Because the old moves and the new skis work so well together their attitude is "why bother with the new stuff, what I do works gangbusters". It can be very hard to convince someone who can ski anywhere in any conditions better than they ever have before that they need to change their basic assumptions and movements, I know because thats a wall I've beat my head against many times.

Anyway sorry for the rambling post, its just what happened to come out when I started typing.


Done some of those other turns specifically

Postby John Mason » Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:17 pm

Done reverse shoulder. This is a very easy way to carve if your turns are long and high speed. Not so good with short radius turns.

Wedling I'm also familiar with.

Check turns, hop turns, done those too.

What I do like about PMTS and Eric and Rob DesLauriers book points this out is how very versitile the Phantom move is. As I mentioned before they even use it in hop turns.

PMTS can do a carve or a brushed carve, a long radius turn, or even a hockey stop. Most people look at PMTS as being carving only. Really when you get down to it PMTS is simple a method for initiating and modulating how much tipping is going on. By focusing on the unweighted inside foot (or weighted in the weighted release) your body automatically finds itself "committed" to the new turn to catch the building turn forces. At the higher levels its often more of a weighted release where your really letting the weight shift with the motion of the body generate the new turn, but even then the outside foot is passive and there is still the initiating motion of the LTE of the new inside foot. The type of turn you get varies tremendously by how extreme the LTE tipping is on the inside foot coupled with how fast you shift your weight and with how pressure is controlled. What you don't do in PMTS is actively twist your outside foot to begin or generate or modulate or control turn shape. That's not saying you can't ski turns this way, it's just PMTS focuses on a very efficient bread and butter way to ski down the mountain with the new skis.

I never skied on the old stuff, but from what I have read is that the big change is that now you can get a shaped ski turn go to reverse camber to carve a turn with very little speed and pressure. Your own body weight is enough. Apparently in the past carving was more difficult as the much smaller sidecut meant the force to get the ski to reverse camber was much higher.

What is nice about PMTS is that it will allow within a consistent methodology such a wide range of turns. Wheras reverse shoulder is not so hot for short radius turn PMTS does both will and bumps well and powder well, etc. It's just changes by weight distribution between the skis and amount of inside little toe edging one is using. As you tip more your body must be tipped to accomodate the increasing turn forces. Wedling and/or railroad turns are good for teaching that skis carve and to get the feel of it. But in real turns both of these turns tip first and body later. In PMTS by tipping the inside foot to initiate whole body tipping, the body tips into the new turn which results in the outside/stance leg tipping which is a lot different then the style of turns other methods of tipping to turn generate. I've tried and played around with most all I have read and stuff from friends that have skied for years. (like reverse shoulder, or the stein feet smashed together subtle weight shift approach) But I still found in my admittedly limited experience that PMTS is the easiest way to turn with the best stability and confidence on all manner of terrain. It's certainly by far the best way anyone has shown me to do short radius turns. In both of my friends cases (they each have skied frequently for decades one mainly with reverse shoulder stlye, the other with stein weight shift feet right together style) they can't really do short radius turns. (they both also fall more frequently than I do as a result because they both get going a bit to fast for conditions (IMO though I'm sure they love tearing down the mountain and don't think it's too fast even though I went with one of them to the emergancy room as a result to get his thumb stitched back on))

For a broad look at the all mountain ascpects of PMTS and how versitile it is for varied types of turn needs I would recommend those x-clinic guys book Ski the Whole Mountain. The appendix in the back of their book for drills to develop proper technique is right out of the PMTS teachers manual.

I do enjoy trying out different styles of turns. You can often learn something to add to your bag of tricks that way. But we still most have our bread and butter style of skiing we gravitate too and PMTS is more versitle than most people think.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:25 pm

Oh John, when you fall back on your book learning you are preaching to folks who can ski down a double black mogul run while playing Lady of Spain on the accordion. Most of us don't think about technique when skiing, it comes by itself. Try singing a song aloud, all the words, while you make a run so that you can't think about skiing and the zen will take over.

PMTS is a teaching method, not a skiing method. Once skiers become proficient you can't tell by which teaching method, if any, they got there.

If you can tell, they are not proficient. PMTS claims to make it quicker and easier and it may well be so. Skiers who want to avail themselves should take PMTS lessons. That's it. When they are done they won't be better or worse skiers than the other experts around.

When we ski together I'll show you how to initiate a turn with just rolling your eyeball to the side you want to go, moving nothing else. Your skis will automatically go to where you are looking.

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Postby John Mason » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:38 pm

I'm impressed. I didn't know you play the accordian.

Actually I pretty much agree with what your saying. At the top of the methodology, once your on PMTS's weighted release, you are doing what others do and methodologies get you to.

In that vein, the recent now 6 page post on EPIC goes way over the top on stuff no one can think about while skiing. Who cares if it's centripidal or centrifical or not.

There is a difference in styles of people coming down the mountain, but if you see someone carving down efficiently without doing any skidded entry at the top of the turn, then I would agree the end result is the same. They are doing it via weight shift which results in tipping and thus steering forces. For a beginner, that chicken and egg problem of how to trust and commit to the turn just a tad before the skis bite and keep from landing in a heap is a lot about what the one ski LTE turn drills are all about. They build that trust and balance while preventing "saftey" motions like twisting the new outside ski at the top of the turn that would destroy a nice carved turn. PMTS is one way to get to that end. But once you then put both skies on the ground and are doing weighted releases as HH teaches it or "Soft weight shift" as Lito Tejada-Flores teaches it, you are doing what most really naturally looking "zen" skiers are doing anyway.

OK, I expect to hear accordian music at Holiday Valley this winter! (lets see, the closest they had to moguls when I was there was the Yodeler (well, 1/2 of the Yodeler).

(Still Ott, I don't see to many people coming down the mountain with the Zen of Rich H or HH or Diana - however, Tommy Moe on Warren Millers newest movie also had "Zen".)
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Postby *SCSA » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:58 am

Morning Fellas,

Ott. If you come out to CO this year and we don't make a few turnz...don't do that. :wink: Make sure you look me up Ott, I'm dying to Wedel behind ya.

Who you been making turnz with when you come out here? Don't tell me that weazel Barnes, and his understudy, RustyUnderscoreGuy? Don't tell me that, Ott. You need to be makin turnz @ the Big Show, with SCSA. Not those scurvy dogs Barnes and Rusty. :lol:


Folks, Ott is a hero. The he/she/it went around and took pictures of ski races -- how cool is that!

Hey 97.2,
Hi ya doin? Hi ya doin.
You loozin weight? You better be. Don't tell me, you aint been loozin weight. How much weight have you lost? What kind of cardio you been dooin?

You comin out to the Color Red this summer? If so, we could do a hike or sumptin.

I'm in for the ABasin camp, can't wait. You goin?

Hey man, get this. Say good bye to the tourist trophy. I'm trading it in on an 05 S4 Avant. 344 hp, baby! 0 to 60 in 5.6! IT RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPS! Makes the tourist trophy seem like an SUV. Imola Yellow.

So you think I've passed my sports car phase? Not so fast, software breath. Well, maybe. :) But here's the real deal. Mrs. SCSA is pregnant. That's right, I'm reproducing! How scary is that? They'll be more of me! So you he/she/its keep a candle lit for me, 10-4? We missed on the first 2 but we think this is it. Mrs. SCSA says she feels more pregnant than ever. So, that should be good. I'm fing psyched. :D

Matter of fact, if I have my baby, I may quit beetching about ski instruction all together. No time for that. Must raise next Olympic Slalom champeeun. Well, after HH has his time with her of course. If it's a gurl, I'll have Diana train her.

Be cool,

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:04 am

Congratulations, SCSA, I hope the pregnancy takes, then, as a father, you really have to shape up :) . We were out in Colorado skiing Copper, WP and A-Basin because the skiing is free for us in Copper and Winter Park and only costs 10 bucks at the Basin, it's hell to get old but sometimes it pays.

No, I haven't lost any weight because I hate to deny myself all the good stuff just to look good in a coffin :wink: . Besides, I will when I feel that the weight impairs my ability to do the things I desire, I'm fit enough now.

Though we had the Barnses over in the trailer for supper and they recipricated, where I met several Epic instructors and examiners I hadn't met before, we never skied together, we ran into him on the hill but he was teaching a class. It doesn't matter, we know how he skis and he knows how we ski.

I don't know yet about next Winter, we think we are going with a ski club to Europe, but things can change.

It's good to hear from you, you are a terrific skier and I'm sure your baby will be born with a pair of super-side cuts.

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Re: Impressed

Postby PSIA Card Carrier » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:16 am

John Mason wrote: Who cares if it's centripidal or centrifical or not.

There is a difference in styles of people coming down the mountain, but if you see someone carving down efficiently without doing any skidded entry at the top of the turn, then I would agree the end result is the same. They are doing it via weight shift which results in tipping and thus steering forces. )

It's centrifugal and centripetal

Carving is not an end result that occurs via weight shift. You're getting more and more confused my friend.

You have bemoaned "old school" teaching. If you want to dabble in old school just launch into a discussion of weight shift.
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Being Fat

Postby New Lurker » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:19 am

I don't know who SCSA is or who he is talking about, however, how would you like to get up Monday morning, fire up the computer, and be asked how much weight you have lost?
New Lurker

Postby milesb » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:58 am

Guest, thank you again for the sarcasm. Now what is your take on TTS?
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Postby *SCSA » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:28 am

Hey Lurker,

It's Monday and you're just now turning on the computer? Whazzup with you? :P :lol:

Postby *SCSA » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:31 am

Hey Guest,

I seem to remember a Colorado Gathering that the anti-HH didn't go to either. We even had it at his place of employment. So whazzup with that?


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