Pure PMTS Carving

PMTS Forum

Postby piggyslayer » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:10 am

Tommy,
You lighten the stance ski to release. Lighten if FIRST. This shifts the pressure and puts proportionally more weight on the free foot-to become stance foot- which is still on LTE.
Flexing both legs unweights both skis, this obviously requires more care so you do not loose grip. I believe applying a bit of obliques and abdominal muscles when pooling knees up can create correct ?geometry? for maintaining the carve/grip a bit longer.

I go more even weight distribution with carvers. Somehow 95-5 or 90-10 does not work as nice as say 70-30. So it is even easier to keep edges as there is more weight on the free foot at the end of the turn.

Does this explanation make sense?

I also edited my previous post adding a line or so to clarify the pole plant.
Thanks for your kind words, I am sure I still miss bunch of essentials and some of the essentials I get wrong, but this is what is so cool about skiing, we never stop learning.
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Postby BigE » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:33 am

piggyslayer wrote:.....My understanding is that the term ?committing into next turn? is used to describe it.
In anticipation of this part of the turn I tend to do a little movement with my neck which sets my head forward, sort of like looking into next turn. I notice some other skiers do that too. Jeff is teasing me that I am using Phantom Head TM......


Warning bells go off here.... you should check that you are sufficiently canted. This head movement is described in Witherall's book as a sign of undercanting -- skiing slightly bowed. The book stresses that proper alignment has to be maintaing throughout the year. It's not just "set and forget". It also suggests that the last 20% of the adjustment gives you 80% of the results.....

Just a suggestion....
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Postby piggyslayer » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:54 pm

This head movement is described in Witherall's book as a sign of undercanting -- skiing slightly bowed

It is very interesting what you are saying. I am piggyslayer, no way I am "bowed" (piggy is separation between knees visible during proper LTE tipping).
The head movement, I think, is subconscious manifestation of me wanting/anticipating next turn.

I was doing it all my life even before getting properly aligned and I am effectively knock kneed (due to forefoot varus condition).

I believe Witherall's book is not exactly PMTS. I think Witherall wants everybody to be slightly knock kneed (about 1 degree or so).
I think it is very hard to do efficient LTE tipping movements if you aligned into knock kneed stance.
I may be wrong on this, I have never read Witherall's book.

BigE could you elaborate more about how the head movement is a result of alignment. This looks like interesting kinetic chain reaction that I do not understand. I thought of it as purely psychological...
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Postby BigE » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:53 am

It's just that. The head movement is inside towards the next turn, inclined like you'd say to someone "Hey, <tilt> over here!".

It can be a result of not getting the edge of the outside ski to fully engage. So, the position of the head will compensate for the intended but not acheived inclination, and be more inclined than the body.

Is that the position of the head you are experiencing?

Yes Witherall suggests that 1 degree inside is best, and if you don't have it, then you can find your head doing such things, but there can be other reasons that one does not acheive the desired amount of inclination, fear being the most dominant one.

I've seen the head movement in my beginner freind, who does have alignment issues as well, and tries to remain on both inside edges throughout her turns. She tilts her head as if she was actually inclined, but very little inclination is actualy happening. Fear also keeps her from lifting the inside ski. She is also knock kneed, so I cannot determine if her head movement is mental, physical, or if she is simply lacking in technique.

In her case, being a beginner, it's probably a bit of everything, as she does not transfer weight well, and is afraid to commit to the turn, so the head fakes the angle of inclination. Also, since one ski is not flat to the snow, (which will be addressed at next season start), she is often seen skiing with head tilted, line of chin to nose 90 degrees to the plane of the tilted ski -- She mistakenly bought a boot that did not have a cuff cant.
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:37 am

BigE,
Thanks for the info.

The head movement I am experiencing is NOT tilting.
It is all in the neck, simply the head moves forward (NOT TO A SIDE) and remains up-right.
The only descriptions I can think of is like kissing the next turn :) or opening window and looking straight out.
I think it is purely psychological. It is sort of involuntary reaction of my body wanting to commit into next turn.

I agree that tipping head sideways is no good. For one, it could affect the way skier is sensing balance (Rich has pointed this out to me), but forward movement seems to me is OK. I can force myself to stop doing it, but I figured why should I?

In any rate, this is a small thing and is probably not worth devoting too much time in this thread.

I am no expert, but I am not sure about 1deg adjustment Witherall suggesting. I feel that I would not be happy with forced (even minimal) knock kneed stance. After all, it is not about BTE.
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Postby BigE » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:10 am

piggyslayer wrote:I am no expert, but I am not sure about 1deg adjustment Witherall suggesting. I feel that I would not be happy with forced (even minimal) knock kneed stance. After all, it is not about BTE.


What!? Of course it is! Stance leg is on BTE through the turn. That's what is doing the actual carving, not LTE. BTE is critical!

Eg. If you are grossly bowlegged, like myself (over 5 degrees from Witherall's ideal), high edge angles and high forces are very hard to acheive without always sliding out. After canting only 2 deg, it's much better.

Witherall suggests that one should not bother trying to fix anything over 3 degrees out; the change in the geometry of the body is too great. Well, after 2 degrees, I can sense there could be even more canting, which I will have done this year.

I think the issue with huge amounts of canting is ankle/hip stress. You need to be flexible to adapt to the new geometry. Some people ski much worse after alignment, since their geometry changes so very much.
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Alignment Measurements

Postby Harald » Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:44 am

Point of clarification:

Relating to the question about alignment, Warren Witherall?s measurement and alignment process is not standardized, as his evaluation instrument is not consistent with preferred stable, flat surface approaches generally used.
The tipping, round, semicircle measurement tool that he used to produce measurements for his book has huge inconsistencies, as muscular influences of the adductor (knock kneed) and or external rotators of the leg (bowed stance) more often than not, exaggerate the off center measurement results.

Also, the preferred one degree position, inside center of the boot, is less than the ideal set up for today?s ski technology needs. Unfortunately, Warren?s book regarding alignment measuring and position was already obsolete when it was published, as most alignment specialists were already adapting new standards for the shaped skis. Warren?s book was poorly timed, as his information is mostly based on straight ski technology and alignment understanding. Unfortunately, it came out right before the greatest change to influence skiing and skiing technique appeared.

Indoor static measurements are only the beginning of the alignment process. If you are to be accurate with alignment, on snow data must accompany your end measurement and determination. In years of measuring and performing alignment, Harb Ski Systems has accumulated over two thousand assessments, more than any other alignment system; we also have alignment information for the greatest variety and range of skiers from beginners to World Cup contenders. We find that the determinations we arrive at are completely different from the recommendations in Warren?s Books.

In fact, Warren asked me to review his book at the last minute before it was published. I was able to convince him too change some of the most egregious errors, to make it more current, but he wasn?t willing to make the whole sale changes it required to transcend the shaped ski era.
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Postby BigE » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:32 am

piggyslayer wrote:BigE,
Thanks for the info.

The head movement I am experiencing is NOT tilting.
It is all in the neck, simply the head moves forward (NOT TO A SIDE) and remains up-right.

In any rate, this is a small thing and is probably not worth devoting too much time in this thread.



I re-read Witherells section, and now think that you may want to try a heel lift. He does address a forwards head movement as being too far in the back seat, and possibly fixable with a lift.

You could try a couple of trail maps under the liners first. One way of determining if you have proper fore/aft balance is as Witherall suggests, being simply to keep placing magazine pages under your heel until it feels best, then using that much lift.

Another way I've read about ( in a CSIA related page ) is to do the same, with boots on, and try to jump forwards onto the tips of your boots. Hard to do if your heels are initially too low.

Hope this helps....

Cheers!
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:43 am

Big E.
Thanks for checking the book for me.
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