Pure PMTS Carving

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Re: Hi BigE

Postby BigE » Thu May 06, 2004 7:04 am

John Mason wrote: You can, however, discuss the pros and cons of a side-cut style turn vs a PMTS style turn.

PS. Where in Canada do you ski? I see Lake Louise is approaching it's closing weekend this weekend.

We've stoppped skiing in Ontario a long time ago. Easter @ mont-ste-anne was the last trip....

Sure you could discuss the sidecut vs PMTS turn, but you'd be wasting time. IMO, the sidecut turn is a useful drill, perhaps as part of another progression to actually skiing. One could "park and ride" using ONLY the sidecut (and whatever angle the ski is tipped) to turn, and call that a sidecut turn. My definition of the term is more like park and ride.

Others say it's tipping both skis by putting ONLY the knees inside the turn. A very rudimentary drill to show students that skis can turn without being pivotted. Far from actually skiing.

I think the majority of problems that arise in Cyber skiing is of nomenclature. Just as rotation has many meanings, so do most other terms. We must be VERY careful. I've misunderstood complete threads because of a subtle difference in my definition and others....
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Re: Visitor

Postby Visitor » Thu May 06, 2004 3:26 pm

John Mason wrote:Hi Visitor.

You missed my point entirely. I could do the work on epic if you'd like.

I too could say you missed my point.

We'll just stick to one of the three issues

My contention is that no one at epicski has ever suggested "pressure" was or is "old school".

Pressure exists both as a result and as something actively managed. You read the posts and either misconstrued what was said or came over here to realskiers and tried to jump on the bandwagon in slamming what HH refers to as TTS.

It gets a little old hearing HH talk about what every other ski instructor is doing.

Postby Ski Instructor » Thu May 06, 2004 3:31 pm


I hope this doesn't get down to a comparison of the skiing of your PMTS deciples vs. other instructors.

I know a couple of green PMTS certs. We can certainly post video and watch all 100 or so folks here cringe. They are niddle aged, intermediate skiers and are not exactly candidates for a Warren Miller movie.
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Postby milesb » Thu May 06, 2004 6:24 pm

If you have them, let's see them.
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Nice discussion on Epic

Postby John Mason » Thu May 06, 2004 11:59 pm

Hi Visitor again:

Ok, here is a link to a comment by a regular on Epic about one ski balance.

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultimate ... 002421;p=3

On this thread you'll see Rusty asking 'why balance on one ski'

You'll also see people that don't think there is any way to add pressure throughout a turn.

You'll see lots of people expressing various opinions in this thread. Do a search on Stance width and you'll see similar lack of common ground.

But, this is the thread I pointed you too last time that you never bothered to read apparently.

I would suppose you are saying people don't have varying opinions on Epic. Weird take. They do over there and don't spend time just bashing people instead of talking about specific ski technique issues. Ok, they do like to bash HH or PMTS over there. But in terms of ski technique discussion it's all over the map over there which is fun and informative. Here the visiting posters often are into bash mode and ad-hom attack mode which is a pretty imature way to discuss ski technique. ('course HH starts it some times going the other way)

Some over there are all into two ski balance. There are other threads there as well arguing that two ski balance is less tiring than one ski balance which is the oppisite of what Lito says. Also, in this thread I referenced you have people saying that one ski balance is not as good in gripping ice which is the oppisite of what Ron LeMasters says in his book and others on Epic say.

Over on this board, since it's a PMTS discussion thread, there is a theme to the technique being discussed as people come here to learn what PMTS teaches. So technique is contrasted to PMTS vs other ways many teach or are coming out of traditional instruction.

I think you have an issue because you percieve HH commenting on all instructors. I've never heard him talk that way. He is just talking about most instructors. From the discussions on Epic you will definately get the impression like the level TTS progression I posted the link to and the Lito HH talk, that ski instruction is still focused on methods of turning that are not the same as the phantom turn or what lito describes as Phantom edging. In most ski instruction edging is done by pointing the knees in. This is a different movement pattern with different results.

The more I see and discuss things with various instructors the more the uniqueness of PMTS from most instruction comes out. Bob Barnes describes an accurate weighted release in his couple of year old post of the "perfect turn". But, most on Epic are saying, like the thread I linked to, use inside leg steering or pointing the knees.

All of these methods will make the skis turn. I've played with them all. I like Bob Barnes perfect turn, Lito's soft release, and HH's weighted release movement pattern descriptions the best. They appear to me, in the reading of these moves, to be the same. Bob has some differences from what I read in his comments on shaping the turn, the the major move is the same. Lito and HH describe shaping the turn in the same way.

Once you get down to it, the views on the best way to make a ski turn for most efficient skiing is what people want to learn.

I've got 1 hour to pack and hit the airport to fly to a-basin.

Have a nice night all. Come join us at a-basin. I'll be on FRS 11:21 if you want to ski some turns and share ideas. I'll have my nice 3ccd video camera so we can post some video here as well as a fun "little" digital camera.
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Postby Harald » Mon May 31, 2004 1:16 pm

BigE, thanks for the response to my post judt before I left of Europe. Coming back to your last question, I know that the skiing I saw thst day last month was not a drill, as the skiing was on an open slope, that had a narrow exit. The skiers I saw were gaining speed, in excess, they were trying to ski the steeper sections with carved turns. The lack of control was evident as they had to skid and throw them sideways to slow up. There was something important missing in their appraoch.

I missed out on most of this thread after your reply because I was travelling, but here is my evaluation.

Some time ago, before I left for Europe the question came up about ski pressuring, it is logical and has born out consistently, that if skiers do not ski (when performing their best turns) by tightening the radius of a turn, then it is likely that they do not know how to add pressure to a ski. It is only when you ski with someone who can pressure a ski (pressure it and tilt it beyond the needs for the slope and what gravity and the falline supply) and shorten the radius during the arc that you realize there is a whole different world that really good skiers live in. As I said in a previous post, talk and participation on the forums are fun diversions for many skiers and instructors, but we know it doesn?t prove anything until you get on snow.

If a group of skiers insulate themselves, and stay in an enclosed world; they often only see an average level of ski performance, then at some point that performance becomes the standard or the pinnacle in their world. If it is in a group?s best interest to keep the lid on that level, it assures that they will be at the top their world of influence.

This doesn?t even preclude them from watching and analyzing the world cup racers or demonstrating pretense of understanding of such photos and developing theories, but unless one is touching, experiencing and skiing the real thing, you can only write and talk. Writing and talking doesn?t make anyone a skier and it sure doesn?t prove that you can coach.

Many skiers would like to beleive they are pressuring their skis, but in fact are demonstrating side cut turns only. Side cut turns are fine and fun, but limiting in most conditions. They definately don't offer speed control on steeper slopes, that's where the difference between average and excellent skiing is demonstrated. I just like to keep things in perspective and real. I hear lots of talk, but when I see the skiing that often accompanies it, the skiing rarely lives up to the talk.

I admire and respect skiers who want to learn and who ask questions to achieve higher levels of performance, especially instructor. The ones that are unrealistic about their skiing and knowledge about skiing and continue to criticize without having a foundation in the subjects they criticize, these people are in denial and contemptuous. There is a time when someone needs point out this behavior.

Postby tommy » Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:04 am


how can I while skiing know whether I pressure the ski enough to bend it, so that I decrease the radius of a pure carved turn ? What are the "symptoms" for a pressured and bent ski ?

I guess that for an observer it would be possible to see the actual bend, but is there anything a skier himself can observe ?

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Pressured carved turns

Postby Harald » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:15 am

Tommy, There are a number of indicators for the skier to pay attention to when looking for the pressured carved turn. There are two sizes of pressured carved turns. The turns we were making in Europe were medium size, on medium to steep terrain. This also applies to short turns, but they are more difficult and require total commitment and very early edging. First let me give you the measurable, quantifiable ways to know when you are achieving pressured carve turns.

? Leaving two thin edge tracks in the snow.
? Maintaining the same size of arc on the whole
stretch of slope you choose.
? The last turn should have the same speed as the second turn.

What sensations should you be aware of during the turns.

? The ski hooks sharply back across the falline, the ski comes
back toward you under your hips at the end of the arc
? Your feet are lined up under your hips at the release
? The hips are level or lowered at release and while
crossing the skis
? You feel pressure building not decreasing on the stance ski
? Ninety five (at least) of the pressure is on the stance ski

What sensations tell you, you don?t have it yet?

? Release of edges happens when skis are still pointed
toward falline
? Skis feel like they are running away after the falline
? Your feet move forward quickly requiring an early release
and too much speed
? You fall to the inside of the turn or use the inside ski
to support your balance

Postby tommy » Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:42 am


for the short turns, you say they require very early edging.

Now, it seems to me that in order to achieve this very early edging in the "high-C" part of the turn, the skier must use somewhat different edging mechanisms as opposed to when in "low-C" part of turn: to me it appears that in Low-C, the skier has a natural tendency to use hips and body to create the necessary edge angles, and this is possible, because your CM in the low-C part is acting *opposite the fall line*.

However, in the High-C part of the turn, using hips and body extensively to create the necessary edge angles, would probably get you to fall over, because your CM would act in the same direction as gravity. Furthermore, I guess that it would be difficult to be quick enough to edges using hip/body movement only.

So, my asumption here is that to be able to achive the very early edging in the High-C part of the turn, the skier must use some other mechanism to create the edge angles. Ankle movement & counter rotation comes to mind... Anything else ?

Given the above text some further thought: would it be true to say that the technique for skiing the High-C part of the turn is somewhat different than for skiing the Low-C part ?

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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:07 am

I would like to throw my 2 cents. I would like to know if I am right about it. I believe the edge angle in the high C CAN be prepared in the low C of the previous turn.

Harald post in speed control in pure carving thread
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... 8&start=15
has defined my pursuit of my dream turn. In particular Harald wrote:

Here is the crux of the whole turn, the skis continue forward as the body or CM (center of Mass) moves downhill. The skis don?t just go straight forward, they remain in the arc, meaning they actually move up hill as the CM moves across the skis. I have had people tell me when they ski behind me, they notice that when I release, my CM crosses the skis, but the skis actually continue the arc during the releasing and they finish the carve while heading uphill.

Notice two things: (1) Harald is still turning in the low C, (2) his CM has passed over the skis. The line between his feet and his CM is already marking an angle for the next turn! yet Harald is still in his previous turn.

I feel that sinking my legs at the end of the turn done by flexing the knees and pulling the knees up towards your torso (using abdominal muscles a bit) plays a crucial role in creating such turn finish. I would like to know if I am right about it.

Also, I think aggressive tipping in the low C is a good thing for quick edge change and good early angle. Aggressive tipping moves skis up-hill. Please comment on this point as well.

Sorry for barging-in like that.
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Postby milesb » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:30 am

Tommy, tipping the inside ski works the same in all parts of the turn. It just takes alot of confidence and finesse to achieve early high edge angles. Speed helps too, because it makes the balancing less critical.
If you have enough momentum, you can have the hips downhill of the skis right at the start of the turn and not fall over.
Here is a picture illustrating this.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4 ... 0827&idx=1
Here I have just started the new turn and my hips are just a bit downhill of my skis.
A moment later:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4 ... ion_page=Y

Note, this is NOT PMTS skiing. I was playing around with getting the skis on edge early, then steering them hard, and letting the skis shoot across the fall line. But it does illustrate the point.
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High C and Low C turns

Postby Harald » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:42 am

Hi, I?d like to give this more attention, but Diana and I are leaving for California right now with one hundred Harb Carvers and all my skiing and fishing gear for a month at Mt Hood. I?ll check in sometime later next week, I hope. You are both right about the difference between the High C and the Lower part of the ?C?. Ankles and feet with increased flexing in transition, that?s very important. Counter balance at the release. I?ll have more in a few weeks. Good luck.

Postby tommy » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:41 am


the quote from Harald has been puzzling me for a while, and unfortunately I forgot to bring that up in Hintertux. What puzzles me is what Harald writes:

"when I release, my CM crosses the skis, but the skis actually continue the arc..."

My interpretation of this sentence is that just after the release (of the current downhill ski ?) , the current uphill ski is still on its LTE (how else would the skis continue the current arc, if we by "release" mean that the current stance foot goes flexed & stance ski flat ?) but CM has already started to move downhill, and downhill ski has gone flat, and starts tipping to LTE.

So, for a moment the skis are at opposite edges: uphill ski still on LTE, but downhill ski is tipping to it's LTE, and CM is moving downhill. Moments later the "old" uphill ski changes from LTE to BTE, and the transition is completed, with both skis at same edge agles.

I'm guessing here, but somewhere in the transition the countering of upper body should change directions, probably in synch with the releasing and tipping of the old downhill ski...?
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Postby piggyslayer » Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:46 pm

Here is my best shot in describing the whole thing. I have spent good amount of time visualizing it to the smallest detail. I believe visualizing it helps.
So here is my chance, I hope Harald will correct it, and if he beats the crap out of it my skiing will only improve.

I am sure most of this is obvious stuff for you, but it is hard for me to omit parts of it so it will be a bit lengthy.

You are in the turn. You are in balance, that means the centrifugal force (CF) is balanced by angulation of your body. In balance= the combined force (CF and CM) ends up pointing on a continuum between your skis (distance weighted by how much pressure is placed on each ski so this will be closer to your stance ski if you use, say, 90-10 pressure balance).

You end the turn by creating imbalance. This is done by lightening your stance ski (shifting the pressure balance in the physics above) and flexing both legs done by relaxing both quads and using abs and a bit of obliques (this lowers your CM). The forces are not in-balance so you end up with a ?horizontal? force which pushes you down hill into the next turn.
This creates very cool moment in skiing where you sort of falling down.
This sensation is strong when you practice von Grunigen where you have no choice but let your body ?fall? into next turn. My understanding is that the term ?committing into next turn? is used to describe it.
In anticipation of this part of the turn I tend to do a little movement with my neck which sets my head forward, sort of like looking into next turn. I notice some other skiers do that too. Jeff is teasing me that I am using Phantom Head TM.
Pole will touch the snow during this period as well. Pole plant sort of times the release. Pole plant needs to be prepared before release, for me, I think, the "brain signals" to plant and to release happen both a the same time.

Your CM is falling down, but nothing prevents your skis to keep turning for a while longer. I think you can take advantage of this moment and get even sharper turn. I believe this can be done by stronger tipping and flexing with a bit of abdominal/oblique pull. I intend to work on this in my skiing.
I think that tipping the stance leg to the LTE during that time is good as well. I think you are right that both legs can be on LTE at the very end the low C movement and before the uphill foot ends up on its BTE. That is logical implication of super phantom to me.

I believe the new upper body counter is introduced when your body ?thinks? the edges should transfer. I strive to time the upper body counter with my pole plant. I finish the pole plant with a little push, which starts the counter for the next turn. I guess, this time is marked by a feeling that I cannot continue staying on the old edge any longer and I need a quick shift to new edge.

After that you are in the upper C of new turn and there is time for catching up. LTE and pulling back the new free foot are the only things I try focus on in the top C of new turn. Pulling your feet/foot back and the fact that your body ?has fallen? a bit add up to a bending force applied to your ski in the top C. Both skis are on edge at that time.

This is the preparation of turn as I understand it.
Please comment on it.
Last edited by piggyslayer on Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tommy » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:53 am


impressive analysis and write-up (even though I'm not competent enough to evaluate the correctness, I'll leave that to Harald ;-)

The thing still puzzling me is how the skis can continue the arc after the release, if releasing involves flattening the current stance ski. As soon as the stance ski goes flat, I'd say it will deviate from the current arc. Even if the current free ski is on it's LTE, my take on this is that you can't maintain the current arc by free ski "support" only, at least not for very long time.

I'll make some experiments with the carvers, hopefully during weekend, to see if that will bring any clarity...

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