Pure PMTS Carving

PMTS Forum

Visitor

Postby John Mason » Tue May 04, 2004 8:31 pm

Hi visitor - why do people from epic pop on here and make such weird statements. Don't epic folks know that epic is not one voice. Just because some make those statements doesn't mean all do. I got one very nasty PM from a well known poster on Epic but have also received very nice PM's encouraging the discourse and in one specific case told me to not to let this particullar poster get under my skin as they had seen him ski and he needs help (and that was a girl). (no don't jump up and down SCSA, you probably have the wrong person in mind that talks a lot but doesn't ski well)

I only bring this up to say that Epic is clearly not monolithic. People do post weird things there. I'm still trying to gather where some of the weird untrue stuff that gets bloviated as fact comes from like pressure doesn't change the turn and a wide stance is good and one ski balance is not important anymore. They are learning it from somewhere. I don't know if it's a minority or a majority. I don't know if there is a "Bear" way to ski that most agree with or not.

If you don't think pressure is old school fine. There was a thread this week where people argued like I paraphrased that pressure is old school and doesn't change the arc. Daslider came in and chimed in that pressure does indeed change the shape of the arc and improved on my explanation. You would think that would be obvious. But there was quite a back and forth discussion on the topic. Just go to the recent thread in ski instruction where they were making fun of PMTS on a out of usa site that had a wedge picture on it's home page. PMTS was an article in this site and had nothing to do with the wedge picture. That's the most recent thread. But you got people often stating they don't see the point of one ski balance anymore as the wide stance doesn't require it anymore. Others on Epic disagree with this. That's good. I like Epic and there are many fine skiers there. Eski is a PMTS style skier and posts there as well. But there is also a lot of avante garde wide stance, even balance, tip to turners up there too.

Now while you accuse me of lying to ingratiate myself - that's an interesting choice of terms. Whom am I ingratiating myself too? Do you feel slighted? I have not found any PMTS folks in need of ingratiating too. They are all friendly nice people that will talk with anyone. I've found all ski people I've meet to be fine and friendly people.

I do wonder about people that, unlike myself, don't post their name as they toss their ad-hom attacks without doing research or even knowing me. On Epic people are much more civil.

I'll be skiing at A-basin Fri and Sat. If you'd like to share some turns come on up! Be warned though, I'm a pretty rank beginner that has only skied just over 1 year. Not only thatI'm from the flat lands of Indiana so I have trouble breathing at that altitude. And, to top it off, I have eaten Mexican food the last three days so my arteries are just about clogged up, so I'll probably die of a heart attack.

Just come on up to the skier who is breathing real hard just standing around and say - "Hi - I'm the falsely accusing no name person named "Visitor" and you invited me to share some turns." Then we can go have some spring fun interacting with the mountain!

Or, actually logon with a user name and PM me and I'll get you an FRS number so we can hook up.

But I'm glad you think I misrepresented Epic (not sure what that means since Epic isn't monolithic) and do agree that pressure is important for shaping turns.
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Postby *SCSA » Wed May 05, 2004 6:36 am

My skis bend during the turn like HH says they ought to. If anyone wants to come watch (that's if Mr. 97% shows up to the Basin) I'll be happy to demonstrate.

I know the turn HH is talking about -- I see it all the time too and think it's whooey. Like HH says, it works fine on blue runs. But life aint about blue runs.
*SCSA
 

Postby BigE » Wed May 05, 2004 7:51 am

Harald wrote:First, BigE you are way off base.

Jbotti and JohnM, thank you, as I though I was going crazy after reading the posts before yours. It seems that the instructors, (yes they are PSIA, sorry, I said the bad word for all you sensitive souls who can?t stand a little controversy) can get away with saying anything they want about skiing and PMTS and no one calls them on it. It seems to be just fine for them to not only make utterly ridicules statements about skiing technique, PMTS and attack me personally, but if someone brings something up about them, they get offended. Sorry, I know that these people are not only wrong about what they say (on the forums) about skiing and especially about PMTS, but they can?t back it up. I see them ski and I don?t have to know what they are trying to do, (BigE) they are just not skiing the way they profess that skiing should be done even using the very methods they defend. The trainers and instructors I saw this weekend don?t ski nearly as well as they talk or write. ?Paper Gurus?. Part of my duty as Educational Director for PMTS necessitates that I inform skiers about truth and fabrication. When I see enough fabrication without responsible rebuttal, I feel driven to step up. There are now many PMTS users who can step up and they do, and for this we should all be thankful. I won?t sit back and watch complete misrepresentation be submitted time and time again without some attention brought to what these individuals write. They don?t understand PMTS, yet they feel compelled to write like they do.
I'll be in Austria tomoorow so have fun.


Thanks for clearing that up. I can appreciate your position.

Just on the off chance, were they perhaps purposefully doing sidecut turns as a drill? As opposed to the turns you witnessed being the final product? I was taught sidecut turns too, but not as the final goal.
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Hi BigE

Postby John Mason » Wed May 05, 2004 9:03 am

I think HH is off to Austria, but you bring up a good point.

It certainly could be a drill.

I have this same question.

Others that have seen some of these high up PSIA folks ski have made the same point that though they talk like what they teach is the same stuff Harold teaches, the way they actually look on the hill is quite different. But I've never seen these folks ski.

I know both parties will say you tip to turn, but PMTS also advocates a narrow stance and ski to ski balance and tipping the free foot in order to create the lateral tipping and to eliminate stemming. ('cept in pow)

This difference would show up on the hill rather dramatically. In fact a recent Epic post made fun of a HH on-line movie and did not think that style of skiing is good. So, I'm assuming that stance width has a lot to do with the difference.

Of course, no one knows who HH was referring to, other than cross referencing on Epic you can speculate some since Rusty Guy and Bob Barnes were working on things that day with video taping. So without a who or specifics it not that useful to discuss and amounts to rumors and gossip. You can, however, discuss the pros and cons of a side-cut style turn vs a PMTS style turn.

PS. Where in Canada do you ski? I see Lake Louise is approaching it's closing weekend this weekend.
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Oh - SCSA!

Postby John Mason » Wed May 05, 2004 9:04 am

I see you like my nickname proposal
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed May 05, 2004 10:35 am

Aren't you guys arguing about nothing? If you see a top PSIA or Austrian or French or PMTS ski down any slope and you don't know who is who I'll wager that you can't tell the difference except in style. They all handle the slope adeptly.

Also narrow vs. wide stance deals in abstracts, comfortable stance is what counts, and comfortable can vary with conditions and terrain and with intent.
As for speed control, no matter what turn one makes, if the first one is good, that is it is started with moderate speed, gains momentum in the fall line and is brought around and finished only when all the speed gained during the fall line phase is lost, the next and the next and the next turn will not gain speed all the way down the slope. If it gets steeper shorter turns help because less time is spent in the fall line so less speed has to be lost and the skis don't have be brought around as much, but....

NEVER start your next turn until you are going no faster than this turn was started, even one unfinished turn gains enough speed on the steeps so that it takes several consecutive turns to slow to the previous speed.

Intermediate skiers often make the mistake (a mistake in my opinion) to dive straight down into a step slope to where they either have to ski at that speed or work hard to slow down.

John, when I first got on shaped skis from my straight ones which I skied very close, and one footed to bend them, I found that skiing that close on the new skis had the tips nipping at each other at every edge change. Now I ski a comfortable 4-5 inches apart most of the time. You have Looked at Nolo's skiing video on epic, yes? and she skis in a comfortable stance and she doesn't overbank or over angulate because it isn't neccessary for the turns she is making.

BTW, carving or slipping or drifting or brushing the skis is all great as long as it isn't unintentional, meaning out of loss of control, you use whatever you want to get you where you are going with the least trouble. There isn't any best turn, you should know them all.

....Ott
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Postby *SCSA » Wed May 05, 2004 10:53 am

Hey Ott,

Of course we're arguing about nothing! WTF you think this is about, anyway? :lol: Where the hey you been all these years? What game you been watching? :lol:

But I tell you what. I can argue about nothing better than....OMG, this is
killin me. :lol:

SCSA, ROFLOL
*SCSA
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Wed May 05, 2004 11:23 am

>>>>But I tell you what. I can argue about nothing better than....OMG, this is killin me. <<<

98% of us??? :wink: . Or did I just promote you? :P

...Ott
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I liked the Nolo ski movie

Postby John Mason » Wed May 05, 2004 12:02 pm

I liked the Nolo movie. What was interesting was the comment posted by one person that wondered why she was narrowing her stance at transition which shows a basic misunderstanding of vertical verses horizontal seperation.

6" or less is about right. As you point out the old style of feet together doesn't work because of the shape of the skis.

The people I see that do this wobble side cut turn down the slopes are about shoulder width apart.

Nolo looked like an excellent example of the "soft release" or "weighted release"
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Any nickname

Postby John Mason » Wed May 05, 2004 12:09 pm

any nickname is better than "bricklayer" which was what SCSA was starting to call me
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Postby Mr T » Wed May 05, 2004 2:41 pm

All the talk on the forums doesn?t represent the end result. I can see the results of the different approaches as they are represented by the skiing of those who profess to have the knowledge and the system.


This is precious wisdom. I wish I had read it before I got myself kicked out of a forum in Italy for being too polemical. :oops:
Mr T
 

Postby *SCSA » Wed May 05, 2004 5:32 pm

Hey Ott,

Can I get a raise too? Ya know I'm just tryin to get on full time... :lol:
#############

Sorry, YH deserves to be gonged. Because anyone who'd go to that much trouble just to post a video of blah bla blah turns, should be gonged. I'm sorry, I'm tired of seeing long turns on blue runs. To me, they just don't apply.

Then, on a related but separate matter, when are we finally going to see these demo team members I been reading about them all these years rippin? How come they don't post a schedule? "Come see us rip and ski with us. Here's where we'll be." These demo team members see to be the pride and joy but it's always a surprise when they show up somewhere. Hmm??

Hey, I got one. Instead of Nastar, let's have, "DStar". Show up, ski bump runs, wherever, challenge demo team members. I know I'd like to see how I match up. I bet a lot of other skiers would, too. Skiers would pay, all the proceeds go to a charity like SOS (snowboarder outreach society) or something. You know, in the early days of triathlon an entrant would line up right against the pros -- Dave Scott, Scott Molina, Scott Tinley. It was cool. How come we can't do that in skiing? If Dteam is the standard, why can't I show up and challenge myself against them, the "best"?

:idea:
*SCSA
 

Re: Visitor

Postby Visitor » Wed May 05, 2004 6:35 pm

John Mason wrote:Hi visitor - why do people from epic pop on here and make such weird statements.


John,

I merely asked a question and you post a lengthy response. IMHO you failed to answer my query.

Let me try this again. You made several contentions about what was said at epicski concerning pressure, stance, and balance.

I stated my recolledtion was never having read anything of the sort.

Can you support your contention with a url?
Visitor
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Wed May 05, 2004 8:24 pm

SCSA, the 'D' in D-team stands for 'Demo" as in demonstrating school turns and the high level turns are just a rather small part of it, demonstrating perfect gliding wedge turns on green runs is much harder than whipping down a mogul run.

FYI, nolo's videos were shot in slow motion, the actual turns were much faster.

.....Ott
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Visitor

Postby John Mason » Wed May 05, 2004 8:46 pm

Hi Visitor.

You missed my point entirely. I could do the work on epic if you'd like.

My point that you completely missed is that people on epic disagree with each other. People have indeed told me the things I stated. On the one on pressure I gave you a reference to a thread with it's subject so you could find it in about 3 seconds. You didn't bother to even check that one out.

I'll repeat. Lots of people on Epic ski well and know how to ski well. Lots of people there do not follow a PMTS approach or even their own version of it and advocate wide stance. I don't know who these people are or where they are in the mix of things on Epic. I don't know if there is a "Bear" way to ski. You can find every opinion under the sun on Epic. You are asking me to find for you the obvious. You want a thread where someone advocates a wide stance. Gosh - just look up stance and you'll see tons of back and forth discussions on it over the years.

here is a link:

http://www.epicski.com

Why your at it, instead of pretending I didn't respond to you - look up the pressure discussion as but one of tons of examples. It's not hard to find.
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