tree skiing....

[Ron]

No need to turn arms or turn th skis with your body. Counter productive and leads to rotation. This is nothing like that.

You are confusing the two motions. Its simply a groomed turn performed at a different angle. Its a vertical turn and not a horizontal turn. The stand up portion is the float through the turn just like on a groomed run where the transition takes place with the plant. You still extend and retract your legs on a groomed run turn don't you? Don't you staighten your legs across the fall line and push out during in the beginning of the the turn as you increase your edges? And as the turn deepens retract the inside leg to make room for the angle and turn? Then you finish by floating flat across the fall line while countering your body towards the next turn when you "touch" the next pole plant. This is what I am talking about with a 3 dimensional turn. It is identicle to a groomed run turn, just turned on its side. Just think about it. It is identical. try it first.....Yes, you extend to turn and retract to come up out of it. As you push down and edge, you turn, as you finish and transition, you retract. Yup, we agree. It may sound off but its identical once you think it through. no different. Think about a short swing turn, you extend and retract there as well. Your body is upright and straight heading in the direction of the next turn. No different.

[Max_501]

Ron, which PMTS books have you read. I need a common reference point to discuss a few things.

[Gary]

Having skied with Ron before, although his terminology may be off, cause we don't push our skis in PMTS, he gets the concept of compress, extension and retraction and has seen the value of efficient skiing using PMTS.

Tipping and compression of the legs occurs and increases at the begining and through the turn to establish and control the length, direction and speed of the turn and pole plant and extenions occurs going to float when the body moves accross and down the fall line setting up the next turn.

These kinds of movements are the same but much more subltle in the powder where sensitiity and soft touch under foot rule.

At least that's how I remember it. Crap, it's been too long since I've had the boards on my feet.

Best,
Gary

[Max_501]

Tipping and compression of the legs occurs and increases at the begining and through the turn to establish and control the length, direction and speed of the turn and pole plant and extenions occurs going to float when the body moves accross and down the fall line setting up the next turn.

This is the opposite of a PMTS. In PMTS you flex to release and then you extend as you enter the new turn. Even in powder. The major difference with powder is that you are on a two footed platform and you may need to use a more aggressive flex movement to retract the skis from the snow. There is no extension to release.

[Gary]

Huh....I don't get at all what your saying....does not compute....
and what page are you referring to cause either my use of the terminolgy is incorrect or you're totally losing me. Maybe I need to go back and refer to the terminoloy...usually start reading the books again in Sept.

How are you using the word "flex"...explain please. If your flex is my compress then we're on the same page.

In powder, I don't make a conscience effort to retract the skis from the snow, I let my ankles and knees work beneath my body with subtle movements, nothing agressive unless a big ole rock or tree pops up. Here I feel the extension of the legs and retraction of the legs working off the 2 ski platform druing turns.

Skiing the groomers or hard pack, the extension I refer to is moving the body across and down the fall line. The body get's long, the legs extend...hook up some tipping, compress into the ski providing energy to the edge and I'm riding the rail. As I prepare to make the next turn, lighten, float, tip, move the body down the fall line, compress to hook up the skis and direct the turn speed and shape.

Don't know if we're saying the same thing but for me, the results from the clinics I've attended certaiinly paid off.

Symantics have never been my game.

Come on out to the 2nd Real SKiers event at Steamboat Dec 15-20th..I'm sure we'd have a ball tearing it up and sharing ideas and PMTS tech.

Best,
Gary

[Max_501]

Maybe this will help.

Flex: a bending of the leg(s)
Extend: a lengthening of the leg(s)

At float both legs will be flexed (bent).

Pages 170-181 of Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 2 cover powder skiing movements in detail.

Here is a quote from page 170,

The movements for releasing and transfer in powder are the same as in the rest of the book except you may need to be more deliberate with the downhill ski at the end of the turn. You may, in addition to flexing, need to pull the ski out of the snow.

[Flexon Phil]

Catching up here. Whenever I can add something to my chest of tools I try. W/o having the book, I am at a bit of a disadvantage. Plus I am more a visual learner anyway. My question is, how can a stance this wide... carve is deep tight trees like the Christmas Tree bowl that Ron mentioned. Since I know that part of the mountain.

[Max_501]

My question is, how can a stance this wide... carve is deep tight trees like the Christmas Tree bowl that Ron mentioned. Since I know that part of the mountain.

Why would you try to use a stance that wide?

[Flexon Phil]

My question is, how can a stance this wide... carve is deep tight trees like the Christmas Tree bowl that Ron mentioned. Since I know that part of the mountain.

Why would you try to use a stance that wide?

I though that was the PMTS stance? Being more upright, how would you scrub speed and chage direction?

[Max_501]

I though that was the PMTS stance? Being more upright, how would you scrub speed and chage direction?

That photo shows a nice position for a carved turn on hardpak. We are talking powder here. If you are seriously interested in PMTS I'd suggest getting a copy of ACBAES 2 (comes with the DVD). Its covers building a Bullet Proof Short Turn which is used for off piste skiing.

[Ron]

MAX, I don't read this stuff in a book, I SKI IT! This is your forum and I respect that and the efficacy it brings but I can't relate to the mechanical nature of this thread. I suggest that we all go to Steamboat and ski some trees together :D . As I said before, I think we are actually saying the same thing but getting hung up on the "secret words" and symantics. I appreciate your bullet proof turns but you can't just (only) use short turns in this kind of terrain. It's a very far cry from groomed blue runs or open powder/mogul skiing. This is terrain is Steep, irregular, varied pitches, rocks, trees, stumps and then throw in a few 5-7' drops (the chutes have 25' drops; I am not anywhere near ready for those areas). You have be able to change your speed, angle of attack, turn radius and be ready for anything at a instants notice. You need to have a toolbox full of skills. For instance, one run we took had shoulder width trees, with steep terrain and some rocks and stumps that all led to a 5' drop off a rock to get out. No room to turn 'em sideways; in essense you can ski in about a 1' path. Bacially straight as you weave through aspend. We used a combo of side slipping, using the tails to scrub speed, edging, floating, using a bit of flex and retraction to absorb terrain (bumps) and speed and even a bit of snow plowing (yes!) to setup for the drop. it was the only way to scrub speed while moving in a straight path. I am still learning how to handle this terrain but you have to learn to adapt your skills to the terrain to ski this stuff well. One technique and approach won't be enough. This is why I was hoping to hear other ideas. I need a full tool box, with a lot of options. You can't ski this stuff with regular turn intervals or pace. You will get hurt, no kidding. This takes nothing away from your skills, its just another kind of skiing that requires varied skills. Up until this past season, I had never skied anything like this. It's a whole different game that has become my obsession. I don't even care if I ski groomed stuff anymore. I feel like I am learning all over again to some extent.

[4Slide]

I don't think either Max or anyone was talking about a rigid movement pattern or regular turn intervals. Check out the bumps and powder section in the book Max mentioned, for instance, you'll see roughly 50% absorption or flexion as appropriate for the terrain. In the weighted release section, far less. People who aren't used to that level of flexion will actually tend to criticize it as "overflexed," but in fact the ability to use it when needed is a big asset in the terrain you describe. Just on flexion alone, go through the different progressions and look at the varied uses of it, and degrees of it, you see displayed. Just developing that one skill expands the "toolbox" dramatically.

[Ron]

show me in the closets!

[milesb]

Ron, PMTS trains a skier to balance on the ski. All the movements work to maintain or increase balance. Movements that decrease balance are de-emphasized or eliminated. A skier in balance can make any size or shape turn using only the PMTS movements.
With that in mind, what you would add to your "toolbox" would be balance. You would get that by following the entire PMTS progression outlined in the books and videos. Or get some live PMTS instruction. At the end of it all, you may still want to do some "other stuff" in the conditions you mention, but even that will be done better. It's alot of work, and only you can decide if it's worth it. If you are happy the way you are going, that's fine.
BTW, if you want to see how it's done in the trees, look up SCSA at Vail/Beaver Creek next season. But don't think you are going to get to what he's doing just by learning the Phantom Move.

[Ron]

See ya' at Steamboat!