How does PMTS generate rotary turns like at the top of Mogul

PMTS Forum

If it's steering then that shouldn't be taboo.

Postby John Mason » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:07 pm

I hope no subject is taboo. Some people flip on the PMTS term "stance" leg.

So a corrallary question for the PMTS people with much more experience than I - when is steering ok? At the top of the mogul about to come down the back side, does one actaully point the skis in the new direction and go? Or is it phantom them to the new direction and go. Both would work. Do phantom'ers actually steer but don't want to say so? Do you phantom and steer the free leg, but also steer the stance leg to force a pivot? Is this ever done in PMTS?

I'm for open discussion on any forum. I have personally done turns both ways. My own feeling is that the steered way feels forced compared to the other. I'd be interested in Eski's feeling on this.
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:48 am

Tommy,

My current position is that in a non-purely-carved-turn there has to be some amount of pivoting or rotation occuring, which causes the skis, or at least the aft part of the skis, to skid. like a rallye car's tail.


Except for cheating on top on the bump :) or for jump turn (which is obviously rotational) why would you want any rotation? Me and Jeff are becoming the strong anit-rotational voice of PMTS :wink: (are we not?).

Notice that NO rotation will cause ?only the aft part of the ski to skid? to do that you would need to cut the ski in half and rotate the aft while carving the fore part. Think about the physics and logic of this statement. You cannot rotate only a part of the ski. Brushed turn results from loosing the pure carve by focusing the (ski bending) pressure on the ski fronts there is not enough pressure left in the back to hold the aft part of ski in tracks.

What is the benefit of rotational forces applied to skis other than skid?
I am not saying that skid is not beneficial (for example on top of the bump) but if you want to eliminate skid and achieve brushed carve or pure carve you have to eliminate any rotational forces on your skis.
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Postby Jeff Markham » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:46 am

Jeff said:
So, maybe the question is: If a short turn is not "purely" carved, does it follow that it has to be pivoted? In my opinion, this does not necessarily follow.

Tommy said:
My current position is that in a non-purely-carved-turn there has to be some amount of pivoting or rotation occuring, which causes the skis, or at least the aft part of the skis, to skid. like a rallye car's tail.


Here is my opinion:

Just because a turn is not "purely" carved does not mean that it is either rotated or pivoted. It simply means that the edge is not gripping throughout the turn. I *think* that this lack of grip is simply caused by actions higher in the turn (or perhaps lack of action) which cause the ski to break loose. For example, I think that a sloppy release/engagement could cause this. I know from experience that, once a turn starts out with a skidded component it is very difficult for me to bring it to a pure carved turn, so I just try to make the next turn better. My point, however, is that this skidded (?) non-purely-carved turn is easy enough to achieve without resorting to rotating or pivoting.

Like others, I'm still learning to carve. Until I reach that day when I can carve at will, many of my turns have a non-carved component. I believe that this is caused by poor engagement skills on my part, not by rotary or pivoting movements.

Prior to encountering PMTS, I had never had a lesson (except for the Alta "Lesson From Hell") nor had I ever read a book on skiing. I learned to ski crappily by watching others ski crappily. The only TTS techique I ever consciously acquired was the wedge and this for survival. So, while I have had to work in eradicating the wedge entry, I don't think that I have much rotating/pivoting in my turns. (I'd like to hear from Harald if he has ever seen this in my skiing and will stand corrected if so.) If I have acquired rotary/pivoting movements, then it has certainly been inadvertent. So, since 1) I don't always carve and 2) I don't think that this comes from rotary/pivoting movements, then I think that it comes from sloppy engagement. Therefore, it is possible to have a non-purely-carved-turn without pivoting or rotation.

A word on terminology. If you turn, then your skis rotate. By this I mean that, from the perspective of the fall line, the tips/tail go from 10 o'clock/4 o'clock to 2 o'clock/8 o'clock. This is more of a "geometric" definition of rotation. When I tip my free foot, my free foot femure rotates, followed by stance femur rotation (more/less depend on knee/ankle flexion). This is more of an anatomical definition of rotation. If I use the large muscles of my legs to "torque" my skis, then this is a technique definition of rotation. AFAIK in my skiing, the geometric and anatomical rotation is occuring, but not the rotation techique.

I make these distinctions because I wonder sometimes what a poster exactly means when the term "rotation" or "pivoting" is used. Given this, I don't even know the "technique definition" difference between rotation and pivoting.
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Postby tommy » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:56 am

Brushed turn results from loosing the pure carve by focusing the (ski bending) pressure on the ski fronts there is not enough pressure left in the back to hold the aft part of ski in tracks.


Maybe all this discussion re. rotation/pivoting/skidding is caused by differences in terminology (mea culpa in that case - but what can you expect from a close relative to the Swedish Chef in the Muppet show... ;-) !): what you described above, is to me (a kind of) rotation of the skis. I could equally well call it brushing. The difference I see between a pure carved turn and a brushed turn is that (part of) the skis break loose from its grip. Like you say, the aft part is no longer following in the tracks.

For instance, if I hold a pen in the front most part, and drag it on the table, I could say that the front part is carving, but the "tail" is brushing, i.e. a brushed (or according to my pidgin English, "skidded", turn containing some rotation.

So, I start to think that even though we are in violent disagreement here, we probably are in fact not.... :-)

Cheers,
Tommy

PS: if you "anti-rotation guys" don't agree with the above, I'll give up on trying to understand PMTS....! ;-)
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Postby tommy » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:02 am

Jeff,

your post was not visible until I've already posted mine! Great analysis of the term "rotation" in different contexts!

I'll have to read your post again to be sure, but it seems that we now (finally!) have reached some kind of consensus on this topic!

"Different, Different, but same, same!"

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:18 am

For instance, if I hold a pen in the front most part, and drag it on the table, I could say that the front part is carving, but the "tail" is brushing, i.e. a brushed (or according to my pidgin English, "skidded", turn containing some rotation.


Tommy,
One more point. Skis bend, pen does not. The only way to carve pen is to go straight. Thus, the analogy is not good. What you describe is rotation and is not carving or brushing in the sense skis do that.

In brushed turn the front of the ski truly carves, it is bend in an arc which cuts into the snow, the tail smears the track.
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Postby tommy » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:21 am

One more point. Skis bend, pen does not. The only way to carve pen is to go straight.


You haven't seen the Swedish pens, have you.....?! ;-)

--T
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Postby Jeff Markham » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:56 am

So, I start to think that even though we are in violent disagreement here, we probably are in fact not....

PS: if you "anti-rotation guys" don't agree with the above, I'll give up on trying to understand PMTS....!


I agree, it seems like we're approaching concensus!

Maybe one could define "brushing" as a turn in which the skis are rotated (geometric definition) such that either the tip is "inside" the arc of the equivalent pure carved turn or more likely 2) the tail is outside the arc of the turn. So, to some degree, the skis are traveling sideways. I would guess however that the degree to which the skis are "rotated" is probably fairly consistent throughout the brushed turn (unless it is being pushed?). Otherwise, the "angle" at which the skis deviate from a pure carved arc would be increasing. Maybe that happens, though.

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Postby Jeff Markham » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:59 am

..and what differentiates a "brushed" turn from a "skidded" turn? The degree to which it differs from a purely carved turn? Harald is obviously making a distinction between the two.
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:06 pm

what differentiates a "brushed" turn from a "skidded" turn?


I think that in the brushed turn the ski front cuts into the snow. In skidded turn it does not.

I agree that this discussion is more on terminology than a real dispute.
The point however, it that once you start calling brushed turn a rotation
you will end up with new skiers trying to rotate (apply explicit rotational
force) to their skis. This will be even more confusing.

I think of rotary movements as movements inflicted on the ski by the skier. Brushing is caused by bend ski releasing its stored energy by straightening out. This does not satisfy such definition of rotation.

In any rate, the substance is what matters, not the words around it.
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Postby mechanic » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:23 pm

All,

I have a question but first a little set-up.

The feel of tipping my left foot to the left will result in/is caused by rotation of the femer in the hip socket. The feel of poining my left foot to the left will result in/is caused by rotation of the femer in the hip socket. Two different feels both involving the same results/causes. When I ski and want to go to the left one way I can do that is to feel a tip or point of my left foot to the left. If I feel the move as a tip I get a very arcy, fast, 'ski design' type turn. If I feel the move as a point the turn is is slipperyer, slower and can be more easily shaped. Seldom do I just point or just tip. Almost every turn I make is a blend of the two because this allows me to go precisely where I want to go at the speed I want to go.

In the terms used in this discussion I can use pointing to create and precisely control the degree of brushing occuring in a turn and can easily go from carving to brushing to carving to brushing through the course of a turn.

Now here is my question. Why would it be better to induce brushing by tipping more/faster/stronger when I can get the same effect and prehapse control it more precisely by just adding in the subtle feel of pointing the foot?

m[/i]
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:44 am

Hi mechanic,

For me brushing is not a goal, rather it is a side-effect.
For example: I am skiing on hard packed icy snow, the snow is very fast, but I want to ski really slow (hey, everyone else goes fast, so maybe I try something different). What I do want is to bend the skis a lot so that my turns are short.

To get what I want: I apply pressure in the fore part of the ski. The aft part is unweighted. The ski is stiff and wants to regain its straight shape. There is not enough pressure in the back to hold the ski in tracks. Brush happens.
If it was up to me, the brush would not happen, but (at least for now) I need to pay the price for what I want.

Someone still needs to explain to me what benefit do I get from applying any rotary torque to my skis on ice.
Performing phantom move the way you have described will obviously apply rotation to the stance foot. I am not expert, but this approach disagrees with what I try to do with my skis.

Just my opinion, I am no expert, simply a recreational skier.

And hey, I asked my piggy and my piggy said the lateral is good rotary is bad. How can you argue with a piggy? :)
Last edited by piggyslayer on Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jeff Markham » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:10 pm

Like Piggyslayer, I'm also no expert (by any means), but I believe that the PMTS answer to your question is as follows:

Caveats:

1) I am assuming that when you say "feel" tipping or pointing that you mean you are applying tipping or pointing techniques.

2) I am assuming that when you say "pointing", you are talking about inside leg steering. My personal definition of inside leg steering is that the inside ski is rotated/pivoted so that it is no longer parallel with the outside ski.

Presuming the above, I believe the PMTS answer to your question is that inside leg steering (pointing) can have undesirable results (i.e., "are limiting") in powder, crud, and moguls. Perhaps you are using inside leg steering on groomed runs with no ill effect. Are you also using inside leg steering in powder, crud, and/or moguls?

PMTS doctrine holds that primary movements are applicable in all circumstances. So, if tipping works in all circumstances, why do anything else? The obvious question here, in light of your question, is "How can I use tipping to 'control speed', shape the turn', 'go precisely where I want to go at the speed I want to go'"?

BTW, what do you mean when you say "more easily shaped"? I am presuming that you mean that you are either increasing or decreasing the radius of the turn. If so, then I believe increased/decreased tipping should have that effect as well.

I cannot answer your question with respect to precision of tipping versus pointing.

Comments, anyone?
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Postby mechanic » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:26 pm

Piggy, Jeff,

A couple quick comments.

First for Piggy. What I think you are saying is that to ski that run slowly you must make short turns. Turns shorter than the ski can carve. To accomplish this you pressure the front of the ski untill the tail washes out and skids around shortening the radius of the turn. What I would do would be similar but with a few significant differences. Rather than pressure the front of the ski I would remain centered and use the pointy feel to create the amount of brush that I want to use in that turn to go to the point I want. Because of the way I am creating the brush I feel that I have much more control over it than I would if I made it happen your way. I can turn it on and off at will, I just can't do that if I use your method. Now, a question. On that same slope what if you wanted to make GS type turns at a snails pace? What would you do?

Jeff, by your definition pointing is not inside leg rotation because it does not result in diverging of the tips of the skis. Thats why I refer to the move as a feel because there is no outward evidence of pointing the foot but it certainly feels like I am pointing it. I use the same feel reference for tipping also because in reality just how much can we tip the foot inside a properly fitted ski boot? Very little, but the effort to tip it more certainly produces dramatic results in our skiing.

I use pointing, blended with tipping. in all terrain and snow conditions. I can ski any conditions just using tipping or just using pointing but I ski them best when I use a blend. So the answer to your question is I blend pointing with tipping because it makes skiing more fun than just tipping.

m
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Postby Jeff Markham » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:53 pm

Interesting! I misinterpreted your remarks and have never heard of pointing in the context you use it. When you point the foot, do you feel anything different inside the boot? Or is it a mental thing?

What do you do when you want to go from carving to brushing to carving to brushing? Pointing? Tipping? Both? One for carving and the other for brushing?
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