Can you use PMTS with beginners - a story

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Can you use PMTS with beginners - a story

Postby John Mason » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:15 pm

Hi BigE! This answers some points you brought up in another thread that were off topic to that thread. I'll stick it here where it's easier for people to add their thoughts and comments to.

In going over the various PMTS material, one can get the impression that you must be able to balance on one ski to do the drills since lots of them are one ski drills. Since this can be a scary or impossible prospect for a beginners first movements on the skis due to inexperience and or alignment, I did not see clearly how one would proceed with a true beginner.

I watched HH do a lesson with a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago that was still a pretty novice skier who was not athletic nor had many balancing skills and who had pretty bad alignment. He had had some traditional lessons of the "mash the grape under the big toe" pizza type (his exact expression of what he was taught) and was a heavy wedger.

I was wondering how HH would proceed since I had made many statements that without some sort of initial alignment I didn't see how PMTS could work for the beginning skier. HH had him do some one ski drills just to be able to see his alignment and it was really bad. So, how to proceed?

I then watched HH teach him the two footed release as a garland. This keeps both feet on the ground yet still results in parallel turning right off the bat without having to cross the fall line. Then HH progressed him to full two footed release turns. He was skiing parallel almost immediatly. He found he was able to turn with no effort, a totally new experience for him. I believe my friends transition would have been even easier had he not been fighting his "initiate with leg steering and wedging" muscle memory.

I skied with my friend the next day. For the first couple of seconds he wedged like old times. I said stop to him (or yelled it in a friendly manner guarenteed to get his attention). I asked him why he was doing that. He said he didn't know. The rest of the day he never wedged and did parallel turns all day. His wife, who is a much more experienced skier than he, was amazed that he could be parallel after one lesson.

Now, for my friend to progress to the next levels, he will have to get aligned and bootfitted, but who doesn't. I did not realize how much progress could be made with a beginner with a bad setup like he had.
John Mason
 
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Postby Guest » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:47 am

Where was the lesson taught? At what resort?
Guest
 

Postby -- SCSA » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:46 am

Way to go John Mason!
Another wedge broken!
Too cool for school! 8)
-- SCSA
 

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:18 am

Where did Mr Harb conduct the instruction?
Guest
 

Postby piggyslayer » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:38 am

Where did Mr Harb conduct the instruction?


Why does it matter?
Piggy Slayer
let the piggy breathe
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Where was it taught

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:15 pm

Mr. Guest - don't know which one, there are nice guests, weird guests, and in-between guests. I'm going to guess this is the weird one. The lesson was taught in Colorado.

Is this not allowed? Is this ok? He and I and my friend all bought lift passes for the whole day. In fact, I bought a 2 day pass. We saw lots of ducks in a row wedgers in training going by us. Is that enough of a clue?

Lets see. We should be able to narrow this down quite a bit.

some hints:

1. In Colorado
2. A ski instructor at this resort came and visited with us and was very happy to see Harold. They apparently go way back. No, it wasn't Tommy Moe. That instructor went on down the mountain after visiting doing perfect super phantom turns. That should narrow it down, most instructors don't do that turn and he was doing it perfectly.
3. Lots and lots of instructors were teaching lots and lots of people in a wedge working towards their much deserved and strived for 15% skier retention rate. (according to a recent eye-opening post on epicski)
4. Did I mention there were pretty mountains around?

Would you like to know where we met for this "clandestine" lesson? How it was arranged?

oh - here is another hint that should narrow it down in terms of time frame.

5. There were some bikini skiers around

I would suggest you just call Harold and ask. He is not that hard to get a hold of. But my question is, why is it important to you?
Last edited by John Mason on Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guest » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:32 pm

and the question might be asked why your reluctance to say where it was taught?

i think you know very well the answer
Guest
 

I'm clueless

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:57 pm

Actually I'm clueless as to what you are talking about.

The answer is in my posts as to where anyway. It's not a secret like you seem to think it is.
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Postby Colonel Flagg » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:04 am

As I told you, Guest, last meeting at 1200 hours:

When talking to PTMSians you should say things like:
?Next time we talk I will go :wink: :wink: and you will do :? :!: ?.

Kids, they do not know what good intelligence work is!

So, Guest, did you figure out which way Piggy tail goes? Is it a clockwise Piggy?

I will have to do everything myself. Here is what I am going to do:
I will break my leg and two ribs and then I ask HH to train me on PMTS.
That will teach him a lesson!

Sam Flagg, Colonel
Location: formerly MASH
If this is my real name
Colonel Flagg
 

Postby piggyslayer » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:17 am

I think that Guest is saying that it is illegal to teach PMTS in some resorts???
And he wants to nail Harald???
How are we are supposed to know what this is about? Is any of this real?

But if he is working for MASH character Flagg then anything is possible.
I think we are been played an early April Fool?s trick :) .
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Postby Enemy » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:54 am

I do not think it is illegal to istruct anybody in whatever place. It would be
the same as saying that if I am in a college room, I cannot teach my buddy who requires my help with some kind of subject.

As long as I pay for it and HH does not have a school open to compete with the "official" one, it is his right to earn a few bucks. I think that Guest wants to know so he can take a lesson while incognito. That's all.

You miscontrued what is going on here.
Enemy
 

Re: Can you use PMTS with beginners - a story

Postby BigE » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:15 am

John Mason wrote:I watched HH do a lesson with a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago that was still a pretty novice skier who was not athletic nor had many balancing skills and who had pretty bad alignment. He had had some traditional lessons of the "mash the grape under the big toe" pizza type (his exact expression of what he was taught) and was a heavy wedger.


Thanks for the story John. It does miss the mark a touch though because your pal already had some traditional lessons. My questions were focussed on the never ever non-atheletic skiers, not the never ever PMTSers.

Bt thanks anyhow, I do appreciate it!

Cheers!
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:27 pm

I think ski instruction at Solvista is based on PMTS.
They teach newbies, beginners, and intermediates.

I know one person who took lessons from Solvista.
It was, however, not her first day (maybe 3rd or 4rth) on skis.
I know at least 6 skiers which started their skiing with harbskisystems green/blue camp without any previous instruction (some have tried the sport 2/3 times, for some this was first or second day). The bunch I know spans from young athletic to not so young and not so athletic.

I agree with you, BigE, that proper execution of certain aspects
of PMTS teaching (even tipping) is hard to do without, for example,
proper alignment. However, as John explained, even not aligned skier can be gracefully introduced to PMTS and some from teh bunch I know never got aligned (some people are just like that, no reasoning with them).

Progression, as described in Anyone part 1 demonstrates a path from 0 to expert. Starting from tipping exercises without skis, tipping with skis on (not in motion), stepping turns without entering the fall line (1/4 of the turn- the banana sort), full stepping turns, garland 2 footed release without entering the fall line (1/4 of the turn- the banana sort), etc.

I believe that it is actually harder to teach a skier with bad habits than a complete newbie. Few skiers start with lessons and never try things on their own. Most will just rent skis and not wait for the first lesson or take a lesson from a friend who may or may not know what to do with skis.

But there is only way to have you converted, register yourself for green/blue ask for the most beginner group (even if you are expert expert, I guarantee your skiing will benefit) and see it with your own eyes.
Guest
 

Postby piggyslayer » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:29 pm

last guest post was me,
login did not work again ....
Piggy Slayer
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More for BigE

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:36 pm

Actually - my impression was that a true beginner would have been easier to train. The fact that my friend was battling his wedging muscle memory was a impediment. I would postulate that a truely absolute beginner skier would have had an easier time of it then my friend did.

Piggyslayer's post about Solvista and the camps seems to confirm this.
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