Pro tip. CSIA ontario web site.

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Pro tip. CSIA ontario web site.

Postby BigE » Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:45 am

I thought you PMTSers might find this interesting:

selecting the pro-tip button on this page gives the following:
http://www.csiaontario.com/resources.html wrote:
When you see a good skier make it look fluid when they turn from one turn to the next, you ask yourself 'How do they do that?'

There are many ways to make one turn blend into the next... One way is to concentrate on the downhill leg and the muscles in that leg. During the completion of one turn, think about the muscles in that downhill leg 'relaxing'. This will allow the Centre of Mass to continue travelling down the hill while your feet (Base of Support) release the skis edges. It prevents your body from 'standing up' and it really blends one turn to the next. Try it...I hope it helps!



Cheers!
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Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:59 am

Way to go BigE!
:arrow: Kinda sounds like what us folks over here practice!
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Lito's "Soft Release"

Postby John Mason » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:22 pm

Lito describes this release as the soft release. In PMTS there are 3 releases:

1. 2 footed (bases leveled, turn to fall line happens naturally, lighten and tip inside leg to develop bottom of turn - easy for beginners, alignment and balance skills not critical
2. Super Phantom - lighten or lift the inside leg while tipping, keep foot even with other foot, keep foot in close to other foot as turn develops
3. Weighted Release - most like the CSIA description, but add active tipping to the relaxing leg as it relaxes to help move the body down the turn.

Tracks of the above in the snow are:

1. Brushed skies at top of turn changing to rudimentary carve at the bottom. Amount of carve vs drift at the bottom depends on how edged of flat the skis are at the bottom 1/2 of turn.
2. One Carve line on downhill ski shifts to one line on little toe edge of uphill ski right at the fall line. Uphill carve line deepens and develops as turn forces increase.
3. I saw this with my own eyes at a lesson I had a couple of weeks ago:
2 tracks/lines in the snow, most on the outside leg, and right at the fall line the tracks jumped 3 - 4 inches, the width of the skis as the edges were rather instantly switched. Some people do this by moving both at the same time. In PMTS we are taught that, while they happen at the same time, the movement that makes it happens is that active tipping of the collapsing leg while the relaxation occurs on that leg.

I've played with both versions of this, and the "soft release" is a nice way to initiate a turn, but it is not active enough to launch a strong short radius turn without the addition of conscious tipping of that collapsing leg.

I'm sure many that use that type of release actually are rolling their ankles at the same time as needed, so I'm not sure if this is any different in practice or not from what the CSIA is teaching.

The weighted release is also similar to what Bob Barnes teaches in his "Perfect Turn", but Bob describes adding leg steering to shape the turn, whereas in PMTS you just adjust the amount of tipping on the inside ski to shape the turn. If you tip more, the turn will require more extension which will bend the ski more and tighten the turn.

Any comments?
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Postby BigE » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:12 pm

Sure, SR turns need more work. "The SR turn has the same movements as the LR turn, but they happen faster." Preceding quote from a CSIA level III instructor. So that's increased edge angles, angulation, flexion, movement of COM etc, all happening in a more compressed timeframe.

The main difference I see between those trained under CSIA and PMTS is that the CSIA stresses the simultaneous release of both edges, always.

There is no focus on independent movement of the inside leg. There are drills, mind you, but not turns that focus on inside leg movement.

So, in context of the tip, while the outside leg relaxes it does so within an active release -- it does not "collapse". The inside leg does not relax, and it is actively released, using knees and ankles. All at the same time. There is no chain of passive kinetic events dragging the new stance ski onto it's inside edge. If anything, I'd think this kind of motion would subordinate the engagement of the inside edge to the motion of the outside leg.

The inside ski then becomes the stance ski early in the turn, promoting the glamorous High 'C' turn.

That same level III indicated that the reason they don't teach lift/tip inside ski releases is that they worry about the tendency for skiers to "Park and Ride" on the outside ski, and shut down all balance adjustments, "skiing with the outer leg locked", quote the CSIA level III.

Before someone loses a gasket, I know you're all thinking that this level III does not know the whole progression, so please don't get too critical!
It's his concern, not mine -- park and ride is not a PMTS invention. Yet the question is still: Is his concern valid? I guess I am asking if you think that the passive "park and ride" trap is easier to fall into if you initiate turns passively? ie. tip & wait

My other thought is on this "perfect turn" business. I don't exactly know what Barnes means when he says "steering". Does he mean actively pivotting the feet, or does he mean pressuring the shovels/forebody of the skis once the skis are on edge?

Both actions may be construed as actively "steering" the ski, as both result in changes of the natural turn radius, and hence changes in direction.

Cheers!












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Postby milesb » Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:56 pm

BigE why don't you just ask Barnes what he means? Either post on Epic or send him a PM. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain it. He probably has an answer already written, in fact.
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I think he means actual leg steering

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:01 pm

In PMTS when you tip the inside leg, it does tip the outside leg. So it's a difference of focus. By focusing on the inside leg, you will have a parallel turn whereas if you try to edge the outside ski instead of letting it happen as a result, you can get a wedge entry to your turn. In practice, looking at tracks of the weighted release being demonstrated by top PMTS people, it's two tracks that jump to two tracks instantly. It does not happen with the one leg followed by the other leg.

In the Super Phantom, though, you will see a change in the tracks from weighting the outside leg, to the inside leg right at the fall line. At the point this weight transfer occurs, what is actually happening is that the outside leg bearing the forces of the turn is relaxed, lifted, whatever. This makes the weight go to the current inside ski and starts the bodies CM moving down the hill and accross the skis. In reality, it's better to say the CM keeps moving down the hill because it was already doing that, but it does move the CM accross the skis. In the Super Phantom, by focusing on getting that inside ski little toe edge engaged early while the inside ski is lifted and tipped, ensures a proper entry into the turn so that carving occurs up top.

In reviewing Bob Barne's posts over the last couple of years, of course you can ask him, he is concerned that the little toe edge engagement on the upper ski, the ski that's about to be the outside ski, represents a step uphill. I can see that as in the drill for this as outlined in Eric and Rob's all mountain book and HH's book, you actually are standing on the little toe edge to get the feel of how that feels then tip and let the turn happen. If you do that in a real turn as opposed to the learning drill, you will stop your downhill CM movement. Once implemented the transfer to the little toe edge is momentary while that edge is engaged anyway coming out of the prior turn and will happen by itself if both edges are engaged as the new inside leg is tipped whether lifted or not.

As far as leg steering to shape the turns as Bob describes in his perfect turn, he elaborates on this in other posts saying its done high up in the leg at the hip socket. Of course, this is where we part company as to shape a turn with these large muscles is not very exact or easy to do. If the "lift and tip" can cause the body to cross over the CM over the skis, then certainly it stands to reason that the inside ski tipping can shape that turn.

In the book the Athletic skier you find much overlap to what Bob says. Pressure, tipping, and steering are blended to shape a turn according to both sources. In this book, though, you will see that they state that in pure carving once your good at it, only about 1% of the turn is determined by leg steering. This is getting so weirdly semantical in that, if they really think it's 1% then that could be subjective and it might really be 0%.

Bob also states that in a pure carve where the edge is fully engaged that you can't use leg steering. That makes one wonder what you use then to shape the turn in that case.

In both cases, Witherall's book and Bob's approach, neither recognize that the phantom move itself can develop rotary forces on the external femur. But, in fact, the Phantom move can generate and modulate turning forces in a way that keeps the body and skeletal forces working for you. Bob, at least, describes the "lift and tip" action that Witherall never describes.

May be semantics, but I think when you get down to it, these semantical differences would be visible watching Bob or HH coming down the slopes. This, of course, would mean, though similar in some ways, there are actual differences in the approaches beyond just interpetation of words.

On the other hand, maybe they look the same coming down the slopes and it is just semantics.
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Postby milesb » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:30 pm

John no offense, but I don't see how you could misinterpret Barnes' writing so much, as clear as he writes!
A few things.
1. An uphill movement is POSSIBLE with the super phantom, but does not have to happen. This is probably why it is not introduced until late in the 2book and video. The forces at the end of the turn will cause the inside ski to flatten as soon as weight is transfered to it, because that leg/ankle is not able to handle the forces like the outside leg/ankle. This draws the upper body down the hill. If you try to do the super phantom with lower turn forces, or if you traverse between turns, then there will be that uphill movement.
2. I've found that steering the skis to shape the turn is much more exact and easy to do than just tipping. I don't know if this is true for others. As I've stated before, it does make a different turn than just tipping.
3. You can shape a pure carved turn by changing the amount of tipping, up to a point. It's especially limited at slower speeds. This is his concern with beginners not learning steering. But I cannot address that concern, that's for the pros to argue about.
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no offense taken

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:28 pm

I'm not sure what I'm misinterpreting on what Bob has written as they are almost exact quotes from epic. Bob describes a perfect phantom move for turning but adds the idea of shaping with leg steering. I don't think he would disagree with this either.

Your point 1 is correct. You can have that uphill movement with the super phantom if you are not careful. But, you can do it at slow speeds too without moving uphill. The key point you bring up that will cause the uphill movement is hanging at a traverse.

Your point 2 is correct. I do agree it'll make for a different type of turn. If your carving and your ski is making a track and not drifting or skidding then steering to adjust your turn is not going to work. Bob has also stated this on epic.

Your point 3 is not correct from my experience. Hopefully some others will chime in with their own experiences. I described in an earlier post how David Weis in my first PMTS lesson showed me how to do a hockey stop with just the phantom move. A hockey stop is the ultimate in using leg steering at the hip to twist your skis. I was challenging the premise that you don't have to use leg steering with the hockey stop as the example. David, without hesitation, showed me that wasn't true.

I have found I can do any mix of pivot to carve and everything in between using the phantom move. What makes it one or the other is the amount of tipping of the inside ski relative to your speed and how flat or engaged your edges are. The Phantom Move does generate external femur twisting forces as a reaction because the Phantom Move (even just standing in a doorway) causes your inside knee to point into the turn even while keeping the feet and thus skis parallel. This resultant pointing of the inside knee from tipping causes a rotary force on the external femur which can generate rotary force.

I think the term Stance leg makes some think that PMTS doesn't gererate leg steering. Check out book 2 on the mogul section. If you've ever done a class in PMTS on an actual mogul field you will see the Phantom move can result in a pivot turn with ease.
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Bob said:

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:37 pm

Bob said:

"Steering is essential in all skiing turns except pure carves. Pure carved turns, involving only tipping and pressuring the skis to cause them to bend into an arc, can be lots of fun. I do it whenever I can--that is, whenever I'm on a a good, wide-open, uncrowded slope with an appropriate pitch. But, as I've so many times described, it gives you all the directional and speed control of a runaway freight train! Without active steering, skis will indeed turn--as will that runaway train. But blending in steering movements as necessary is the key to controlling your line PRECISELY, the key to OWNING your turn shape, the key to skiing in CONTROL"

Bob believes that leg steering is mandetory to control speed. In my own experience doing a brushed carve by simply not having as much edging does the same thing without leg steering. Bob's thing is point the skis where you want to go. Harold's thing is learn how to tip the skis with the phantom move and let the ski's take you where you want to go. Both methods work, but one is much more work and also harder on your knees. I've read most all of Bobs posts over the last few years on epic and I believe I have a good understanding of his point of view as you are correct, Bob writes very clearly.
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Bob also said:

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:01 pm

Bob also said, which illustrates his view of leg steering:

"But briefly, transferring weight to the uphill ski prior to making a turn (i.e. as the first move of a new turn) requires a movement of the center of mass uphill--in the wrong direction. This may not seem like a big deal, but it entirely disrupts the smooth, continuous flow of the body through the turn transition. "

and

"Furthermore, these critical problems are made worse by the inability to steer the feet, resulting from lifting one ski off the snow. As we've thoroughly and repeatedly discussed, with one foot off the snow, any torque applied by the skier to turn the other ski MUST involve the upper body (or swinging the lifted foot, an odd technique indeed!). The result is skidding, imprecision, and inability to sustain steering accuracy throughout the turn. The only other choice is NO steering--pure carving, railroad track-style, all the time--which is a very serious limitation, wouldn't you say? If you can't control your direction--PRECISELY--you are out of control! "

There are a couple of mistakes Bob makes in his above post:

1. When he talks about edging the little toe edge as the first move of the next turn, he is off it bit - it's the last move of the prior turn as the body is still inside that turn. It is done at the same time the old external leg of the turn is lifted and tipped. This, in fact, continues the CM down the hill and has the effect of easily moving the body across the skis. The whole point of putting the inside ski about to be the outside ski on the little toe edge is so that you are still carving while relaxing and tipping the old outside ski/about to be new inside ski. If you just flattened the inside ski you would stop carving.

2. But I think bob makes a great point as to why HH has this drill. Bob is correct that you just can't leg steer if your weight is on one leg which is precisely why this type of turn initiation works so well to elimate stem entries to turns. About the only big misconception is still that Bob does not see how a turn can be shaped without active external leg rotation that won't work on one leg he thinks. But, that hockey stop David Weiss did with the Phantom Move was on one leg and was easy to execute. If the one leg on the snow is flattened the phantom move will generate a pivot turn. It's a question of how much edging is going on in combination with the free leg tipping.

3. This turn is actually a bread and butter turn. Bob also thinks all of this has to be unlearned, but on the contrary, Lito in his book agrees totally and believes that one ski sking is the norm and allows the new ski designs to work best. Both HH and Lito and Eric and Rob in all of their books vary this for powder sking by doing a weighted release. But on groomers, as Lito says, why would one not want to alternate the weight between the skis. (page 277 on Lito's book).

Though I see lots of agreement on many descriptions of skiing from Bob and HH. If there is a biggest difference then it is this very point on the role of leg steering in skiing.

Perhaps we can have another post once HH returns from his forum abscence covering how turns of any radius are effected with the phantom move including almost in place turns like done on the top of moguls. They are easy to demonstrate in person.
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Postby Jeff Markham » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:06 pm

John,

One thing I have to disagree on here and it's something that you've said several times before. I understand that the external femur rotates passively as a result of the inside foot tipping. However, I don't believe that it significantly contributes to a turning effect. I think that my "kinetic chain" is flexible enough to absorb any external femur rotation. My understanding is that my outside ski turns mainly due to the sidecut, not from any rotary force. Even if there were a slight torque caused by the rotation of the external femur, I think that it would be more than countered by my upper body position (a la Strong Arm).

I've tried your "stand in a door" test and I don't feel any rotary force at my stance foot. Yes, I feel some stance femur rotation, but it is not translating to a rotary force at the stance foot.

For me, tipping results in lateral forces, not rotary forces.

I'm not really sure about your example WRT David Weis and and the phantom move hockey stop. I guess I'd have to have been there.
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Tommy found the paragraph!

Postby John Mason » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:29 pm

I knew I read that somewhere - thanks Tommy! (look two posts down)
Last edited by John Mason on Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:57 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby Jeff Markham » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:37 pm

I agree that I am mystified as to an explanation vis-a-vis the phantom move atop the mogul. Also, I don't fully understand the mechanics of the extremely short-radius turn in the two release exercises.

The point of my reply was that I've never heard Harald state or even imply that PMTS causes rotary forces which affect turning. Yes, femur rotation, but I'm not sure that translates into rotary forces which contribute to ski turning.
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Postby tommy » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:45 pm

Great discussion! John, I really appreciate your analysis skills and detailed posts! Keep them coming!

My understanding is that my outside ski turns mainly due to the sidecut, not from any rotary force


Jeff, if the outside ski would turn only due to its sidecut, assuming that a "purely" sidecut generated turn results in a pure carved turn, it would be very difficult for most recreational skiers to make any short radius turns. Even a 4 m radius turn on 170cm skis would demand the ski to be bent almost 10cm, which takes considerable force (and technique!).

As far as I can see, to keep linked turns within a narrow corridor, say less than 5m wide, there has to be some fair amount of "pivoting" of the new outside ski involved. The question is how this pivoting occurs.

In the instructor manual, pages Int-10, Int-11, there is a few paragraphs on rotation:

"In the strictest context, rotary movements do occur in PMTS skiers. The difference is that the PMTS rotary actions are a consequence of lateral tipping movements at the ankle"

...

"The legs react to tipping by rotating along their length from the hip joint"

My current understanding of all this is that in order to do "non-pure-carving" turns with PMTS, the outside ski must pivot to some extent, and this pivoting is generated by the leg rotation caused by the tipping input of the free foot.

Perhaps we can have another post once HH returns from his forum abscence covering how turns of any radius are effected with the phantom move including almost in place turns like done on the top of moguls. They are easy to demonstrate in person.


Yep, it would be great to have HH explaining the workings involved. Lets just hope that he is able to find the few nuggets of posts containing a discussion of PMTS related things among all the noise that has dominated this forum lately.... :evil:

Cheers,
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Postby milesb » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:21 am

John, doing a hockey stop is not shaping a turn, it's just skidding downhill. There is no directional control to it, unless all you want to do is go straight downhill. That's not to say that just tipping at slow speeds gives NO directional control, but it's not as precise as steering. Perhaps its precise enough for 97% of skiing? :D
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