Summer Excercise

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Summer Excercise

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:09 pm

Ok, ski trips are going to get harder to do for me. No local anything is open anymore. In Summit County, there won't even be water for lawns.

So, to help for a possible Chili or Palmer Snow Field trip and to stay on top of things:

1. Tipping Board
2. Wobble Board
3. Carvers
4. Biking

These are all on the agenda.

Anyone have experience or thoughts on the Skiers Edge all mountain machine?

Any other Ski simulators/trainers to recommend?
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Postby -- SCSA » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:52 pm

I'm all over the Harb Carvers. Can't wait to try them, once HH gets the shipment in May.
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Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:38 pm

One of the things I have started to focus on is my flexibility. This may not be an issue for many, but if it is it can really get in the way. I am 44 and I have run competitively for most of my adult life, and over the past several years with more of a focus on triathlons. I seem to be reasonably locked in the hip area and my ability to flex and squat on skis is limited (my dorsiflexion is also poor). My focus in the offseason is and will be flexibility. I have recently started working with a strength and flexibility coach and I have made some good progress in just a couple of weeks. As I said, this may not be an issue for many, but if it is, improving one's flexibility can be worth more than almost anything else that can be done.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Postby -- SCSA » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:13 pm

jbotti,

10-4.

Triathlons, eh? Yeah, I did a few of those back in the early 80's. Talk about a bunch of overachievers!

Triathlons are cool, just don't get caught up in competitiveness of it all. I did. It ruined a relationship (good thing, never would found my wife) and while I was into it -- and I was -- life was all about me. My diet, my training, my soreness, blah bla blah. I was a self-centered jerk who never made time for anyone or anything besides tri's.

Stay balanced! Cheeseburgers, beer and ice cream are good for you. :wink: Don't forget to spend time with your signif other and whatever you do, never compare your results to anyone other than yourself. Set your own goals (realisitic -- we can't all be Dave Scott) and don't worry about the rest.

But that being said, tri's really set a lot of cool stuff in motion. Aero bars came from tri's, so did the whole cross training phenom.

And I don't care what anyone says, Dave Scott is a mega athlete. His marathon in Hawaii (2:48) still stands. I watched that race. It was hot and in the 90's. Dave swims 2.4, rides 112 @ about 24 mph, then goes and runs a 2:48 in the middle of the day, hot as heck.
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Postby Harald » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:26 pm

Summer programs are more important than most skiers believe. Often it is considered crazy to train specifically for a sport that is supposed to be for enjoyment. Enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder. I can?t enjoy skiing unless I am making my best runs. A skiers improvement rate dramatically increases with specific training. There are levels of skiing that can not be reached without acquiring first, specific strength, flexibility and balance.

I train very seriously for the ski season; the training begins in April with bike rides, weight training and Harb Carver training. I also coach racers from the Sugar Bowl Team, during the summer at Mt Hood. So I do ski a little, to keep my feel for the equipment. I also walk hundreds of miles in streams and rivers with a graphite stick waving in my right hand.

This routine has become more important in the last six or seven years. I used to be able to just step on the snow right after my bike racing season and build for skiing by skiing myself into shape, but with my present schedule that?s not possible. My goal is to be strong at the end of every day and at the end of a camp week, regardless of the slopes or mileage skied.

Balance training is an under rated activity. Skiers should challenge their balance on a daily basis with specific balance devices and routines. Many of you have seen the selection of balancing tools we have at the alignment center. We have most of what a skier could need. Balance exercises as in the Expert books are also important to continue if you can do any summer skiing. The Harb Carvers will substitute nicely for lack of snow time. The one footed exercises on Harb Carvers are particularly difficult. If you can make turns on one foot with the Carvers, you will be very prepared for skiing at a new higher level.

The carvers will also be a test of your tipping and edging performance and ability. They are like the acid test for skiers. If you are not able to make turns on the carvers you are not really skiing with enough tipping ability or emphasis. When you are able to carve turns on pavement your snow skiing will sky rocket. On snow it is easy to cheat a turn.

Many skiers comment about how well some one skis based on groomed slopes, but you can?t really tell if a skier really has command, until you have them in difficult conditions on steep slopes. Carving on groomed is only one element of expert skiing, probably the easiest. Being able to carve high ?C? turns on all terrain is the true definition of expert skiing. The skier who can ski with a High ?C? carve is never in difficulty, regardless of terrain or snow conditions.

Flexibility is another overlooked skiing essential. Especially femur in hip socket range, muscles around the pelvis and lower back ranges. I know skiers who never thought they could improve further, but with weight reduction programs and flexibility they surprised themselves and us. Overweight skiers have more difficultly skiing for many obvious reasons.

Strength training is well documented. I prefer weight training for muscle tone and endurance, lean muscle mass rather than bulk. Once you have worked toward developing these basics, miles of skiing will develop the muscles more specifically.

Summer is around the corner. We have detailed summer biking and other programs on the web sites.
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Postby jbotti » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:44 am

Thanks Harald, and you are right, unfortunately the summer is right around the corner. Fortunately for me, Tahoe will get a foot of fresh tonight and I can get some good skiing in this weekend.
SCSA,
You are right on with all you said on triathlons. For all of the above stated reasons (and maybe a few others) I have also stopped competing in them. Unfortunately it appears that many are caught up in the trap. That's why I love skiing so much. There is no score and no times (unless of course you are Diana who lives to race). The only question for me is how much fun can I have!!
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Masters races

Postby rbrooks » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:21 pm

Speaking of Diana, Harald, how is she doing at the races this week?

Tell her we're all rooting for her.

Randy
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Go Diana!

Postby John Mason » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:43 pm

Go Diana! Virtual Internet Cheers! :o
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:25 pm

Word of caution for all who want to carve the asphalt during summer. I am not a ski instructor so take this advice with a grain of salt and apply your better judgment to it.

Rollerblades and Carvers have one advantage over skis, they grip and do not skid.
So all the skidding movements you use in your turns are immediately uncovered (GOOD).

I believe that, this good thing is also a BAD thing if you are not careful. I have been using roller skates to simulate ski turns since 94, they have helped me a lot, but also I got some bad habits because of them.
On skates you can extend your legs more aggressively and much earlier in the turn (as early as 2 o?clock using clock analogy). This propels you and is fun. You can get the momentum going and skate with parallel turns on a flat (I was even able do that and accelerate uphill!).
This is a habit forming movement, it stores in you muscle memory and may affect your skiing. If you extend your legs aggressively early in the turn you skates will grip but your skis will skid.

I believe the issue is more with standard rollerblades rather than Harb Carvers (I have not tried Carvers yet ? I am waiting for the shipment :cry: ). Harb Carvers have two edges and will take longer time to roll on the edge. However, the overall principle of more grip applies, so the same problem should be accounted for.

Also, there are many books on skating. I have found many of them to be fun to read and excellent source of good ideas on how to skate. However, I found none, which provided good advice on how to train for skiing. Many of them offered advise such as: rotate your upper body (as opposed to counter rotate) when making parallel turns!, many teach movements, which are great on skates but when applied to skis, they produce too much pressure and result in skid. So stick with harbskisystems.com lessons on how to use skates if you want to train for winter.

I have never used Skiers Edge, I only have looked at their promotional tape. I am afraid to incorporate this tool into my summer training. The exercise (as I understand it) is about doing a sort of reversed pendulum. To get the momentum going you end up pushing your feet to the sides. This maybe great exercise for muscles used when skiing, however, I think, it could create bad habits. Pushing left, pushing right, etc, is contrary to the idea that the skier should NOT be turning his/her skis. I believe this could form a bad habit and introduce more skid into skiing. If you an expert and ski 100+ days a year, this maybe no issue. If you are like me and struggle to do perfect you turns skiing 20 days per season, it is a different story. I decided to stay away from this product.
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Postby tommy » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:01 am

Piggyslayer,

interesting post. I've also done a fair bit of inlines, and think it's quite good way to practice balance during summer. Wrt. your point on skating with parallel turns on the flats, would it be true to say that if you extend the legs in the "high-C" part of the turn (the first 90 deg from beginning of new turn to being parallel with the "fall line"), you increase your velocity, but if you just float thru that part, and extend in the last 90 deg of the C, then you will slow down? From a physics point of view that would make sense, since in the upper quadrant the extension/push has a force component directed in the direction of the "fall line".

In case the above is correct, then I'd assume that for skiing steeps, doing very short turns, it would be beneficial not to engage the new stance ski early, but instead allowing it to "pivot" almost until the fall line, and from there allow it to engage for the last quadrant of the C.

This seems consistent with what milesb recently posted in some other thread:

And think about delaying the engagement of the stance ski until the skis are almost pointed down the fall line


But your inlines-post triggered new ways to think about that problem!

Cheers,
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Postby piggyslayer » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:36 am

but if you just float thru that part, and extend in the last 90 deg of the C, then you will slow down? From a physics point of view that would make sense, since in the upper quadrant the extension/push has a force component directed in the direction of the "fall line".


Tommy,
Very interesting observation, I never thought about it.
I am not 100% sure now, but I think this is what I do on steeps
(not that this means it should be done this way) I think of keeping my legs pulled back with hamstrings in the upper half of the turn (longer than usual) and then let my legs expand in the lower half and then obviously relax my legs at the end to start next turn. This is what I remember, but I could remember it wrong (hard to practice stuff like this in NJ :( ).
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Postby BigE » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:09 am

Harald wrote: I prefer weight training for muscle tone and endurance, lean muscle mass rather than bulk. Once you have worked toward developing these basics, miles of skiing will develop the muscles more specifically.


Yes indeed!

Bulking does nothing but "improve" ones looks, if you are into that particular look.

Added strength is purely a side effect of the bulking, and it really does nothing at all for endurance.

Bulking is not how one develops functional strength.

IMO, you can do much more relevant training for yourself with a rowing machine, a bike and stretches than bulking up by pumping iron. But endurance focussed weight training also works -- just don't hurt yourself!
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Postby piggyslayer » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:46 pm

Bulking does nothing ...


? and some would say that so is skiing. After all we just come up on the chair so we can go down on skis and then come up on the chair?.

I have heard this explanation why people ski:
?Because it feels good, it looks great and chicks dig it?.
Would not the same reason apply to bodybuilding?

This reminds me, Daron Rahlves physique was commented in World Cup circles as having ?nice beach muscles? as in:
nothing above the waist has any importance.

Seriously, I agree that powerlifting/bodybuilding has limited usefulness in skiing, but do not agree that it has no other benefits.
By the way, changing physique is not that easy, it is hard work bringing little effect, especially if you want to go natural about it.
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Postby BigE » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:54 pm

piggyslayer wrote:
Bulking does nothing ...


?Seriously, I agree that powerlifting/bodybuilding has limited usefulness in skiing, but do not agree that it has no other benefits.
By the way, changing physique is not that easy, it is hard work bringing little effect, especially if you want to go natural about it.


If you compare the results on sport improvement from PLing/BBing vs. the results of more sport specific exercises, there is no contest. Perhaps not nothing, but minute in comparison.

Believe me, I know how hard changing one's physique can be.... I went from 3 sets of 10 @ 20 pounds dumbbell press to 3 sets of 15 at double the weight, and 3 sets of 5 at 50 pounds each hand.... it takes a very very long time when you start over 40.
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Postby piggyslayer » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:26 pm

BigE,

Whatever I do is recreational. I can afford only 3-4 hours (about 2 1/2 hours during ski season) a weak. Within these time constraints, I find that lifting weights works best for me.
I keep moving my routine from long/light set periods to short/heavy set periods. I never go very heavy, but I do go relatively heavy (for example 6 reps squats with barbell in the 3-hundreds, in my peak heavy period I may get close to 400lb barbell ? that is not very heavy considering that I weight 205-220 lb but it is decent).

The benefits of lifting for me are:
1. I can keep good physical condition on small time budget.
2. Joint/ligament health (I started to squat to improve health of my knee which was injured in ski accident some 8 years ago)
3. Stronger tendons stabilize joints even more.
4. Relatively effective way to manage fat content
5. It takes time, but I continue to get stronger

I have added 1 hour of yoga a week (I am so not stretched!) and will try to add Carvers. This will reduce my gym time to probably 3 hours this summer.
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