Lots of viewers few posters

PMTS Forum

Lots of viewers few posters

Postby h.harb » Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:21 pm

I hope this causes some reaction:

Recreational Skiers Movements vs. Racers Movements




Warren Witherall started the discussion decades ago. He stated that racers skied differently and used different movements than recreational skiers and instructors. He also stated that ski instruction taught skidding rather than carving. And that carving was the fundamental difference between ski racersskiing and instructors and recreational skiersskiing.



I was a ski racer when I first read Warrens book. I thought the book pointed out many important differences between expert skiing and what most skiers learned. The book was right on the target as far the skiing technique of that day. Since then we have learned a lot about ski technique and alignment, which Warren also introduced in his book. Although Warren did not invent the idea of canting, he wrote about it and therefore is given much of the credit for introducing canting. We know now and Warren has admitted that he had canting wrong. He had it backwards. I never agreed with Warrens understanding of alignment, but I did and still do agree with his evaluation of skiers vs. racers.



I agree with Warrens original statements about recreational skiers and ski instructors skiing differently than racers. The recent experience with my year round skiing tool and carving invention, the Harb Carvers has confirmed it.



This past year I also observed and coached ski racers, something I havent done formally for a number of years. Since we have introduced the Carvers to many different types of skiers we found ski racers can immediately adapt to carving on the Harb Carvers with a few easy tips. Ski instructors and recreational skiers require more time and direction before they are able to use the Harb carvers effectively.

Anyone have any ideas why this is the case??
h.harb
 

Postby Guest » Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:43 pm

Harald is so right.

I talk to people all the time at the Beav and at Vail. Just the other day I rode up with a guy on the chair who claimed to be a former world cup champion and stuff. As I listened to him "talk", I asked him, "Wanna go ski Ripsaw?". He took me up on it because I told him I only had 200 total days going into this year. He was thinking, "This guy couldn't be any good, he's only got 200 days. I'll teach him."

We took off down Ripsaw and I knew I had him. He had a wide stance and was pushing off the downhill foot. As soon as it got bumpy, he was in trouble. I dumped him. I ripped it all the way down to the chair, just gliding and letting my body fall down hill. I was on the chair, 2 poles up. He was still half way up. I toasted this guy. I'm 44 and he was 10 years younger. He was a supposed "former champion..." blah bla blah.

The difference was technique. It's always, the difference. This guy had lots of bad habits and inefficient movemnets. I on the other hand, have only been taught efficient movements. I was taught to make little movements. Little movements do big things. That and balance. This guy, as are most skiers, well, he was never taught PMTS, that's for sure.

People think that great skiing is a mystery -- it isn't. All one has to do is practice and learn the primary movements that HH teaches. Practice HH's system. It'll teach you balance, which is the key. No one can ski great without having balance. But everyone can learn to balance.

Balance can be learned. Ski instruction doesn't give skiers credit for learning to balance on their edges. HH's system teaches a skier -- any skier -- to balance on their edges.

HH's system makes it so that there's no mystery. All the movements are clearly defined. No one has defined skiing the way that HH has, not even close.

But don't get me wrong, it's not proprietary. HH teaches the pure skiing movements, plain and simple.

"Ski on the $500 part of the ski, not the $50 part".
Guest
 

Postby Guest » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:13 pm

Since we have introduced the Carvers to many different types of skiers we found ski racers can immediately adapt to carving on the Harb Carvers with a few easy tips. Ski instructors and recreational skiers require more time and direction before they are able to use the Harb carvers effectively.

Anyone have any ideas why this is the case??


Well, I don't know anything about ski racing, but I'll take a shot at answering the question.

My guess is that ski instructors and recreational skiers (presumably non-PMTS'ers) are applying the same turning techniques that they use on the snow -- trying to step out with the new downhill foot or trying to rotate. My guess is that the Harb Carvers just won't put up with that approach. Presumably, the HCs are amenable to release-transfer-engage, but not the movements taught by traditional teaching systems. Since the racers aren't employing TTS movements and are in fact tipping, they are able to get up to speed on the HCs more readily.

Do I win the prize?

I guess one thing I don't understand is how the HCs react any differently than normal inline skates. My understanding of the HCs is that they have two rows of wheels, so that you get more of a sense of on-edge, off-edge. So, my question would be: what is it about the HCs that make it easier for the racers to carve as opposed to using traditional in-line skates? Or am I misinterpreting Harald's remarks?
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Postby Jeff Markham » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:16 pm

Sorry, that was me on the previous reply. I forgot to log in...
Jeff Markham
 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:53 pm
Location: Sandy, Utah

mechanics of skates and skis

Postby h.harb » Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:51 pm

The difference between HC and in-line?s is the same as the difference between skates and skis. Skis have the edges out board of the boots or sides of the foot and the HC?s have the wheels, which act as edges, out board of the sides of the foot. Skates and in-lines have the edge down the middle of the foot which is a completely different dynamic. You have to tip a ski to an edge; skates and in-lines practically fall onto an edge.

Racers feel the carving from turn to turn on skis because they don?t twist the ski while it is flat in transition. Recreational skiers and most instructors twist the skis to an edge therefore they get a skid at the beginning of the turn, eliminating the true thrill of skiing, carving ?G? forces and acceleration of the body and ski into the falline.

Carving and learning how to carve properly are the issues here. Many skiers strive to carve, but their movements hold them from ever achieving a series of carving turns. HC will give you the immediate feedback of carving. In-line skates can?t do the same, as the mechanics are too different, that?s why we invented a tool for the pavement that behaved like a properly used carving ski on the snow.
h.harb
 

HC availability?

Postby Guest » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:28 am

Harald,

I saw the material on your site for HC's and am pretty excited. Any timetable on when you'll start selling them and what the price range is going to be?

Jim
Guest
 

Harb Carvers

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:41 pm

We have some stock right now but I don't know how long it will last. We have sold every pair produced at the pressent rate of 15 a week. We are trying to accumulate some inventroy for the summer. We will be increasing production in the near future and we should have a good supply of all three models by next week. If you are interested please call us a 303-567-4663.
h.harb
 


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