Stand corrected! or balanced

PMTS Forum

Postby -- SCSA » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:22 am

Those he/she/its can keep on worrying about PMTS all they want.
But all I know is that while they're worrying, I'm out there kicking arse!

My turns are gettin prettier (well, HH will be the judge of that) by the minute, all because I follow this really cool thang called PMTS.

And you know what?
I'm making turnz all summer, on my Harb Carvers! :P

Yeah, I'm a wacko, but I love to make my turns! :lol:

HSS forever, baby! :!: :D

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:12 am

HSS? High School Skier? :twisted:

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:10 pm

For anyone to write the following is simply silly;

"In the most recent Ski Racing Magazine, Ron LeMaster does a section on balance, with photos. He talks about vertical separation of the feet rather than horizontal separation. This understanding and interpretation is from PMTS material, it is PMTS understanding and theory of narrow stance skiing that we have been promoting for ever. In fact, it does more than support what I have written and presented it is what I wrote in my Book 2."

Mr Harb you did not invent the wheel and you will not re-invent it either,

Postby Bluey » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:38 pm


I appreciate others my have a different opinion to me, but the subject of whether one school of teaching is better than another is not terribly important to me, nor am I terribly interest in the particular personalitites making up these "schools".
May be other feel the same...but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on this either.

I accept people are different and I accept people like to do things differently......let and let live....

If we have to break up the forum, well so be it, but I wont be interested in that part of it.

However, if it means I don't have to wade thru some of the past posts then I'm all for it.

My last point is that this forum has been relatively free of this sort of stuff & its only been a few advice is to ignore their posts & they'll fade away.

All of this is frustrating for me......I'm prepared to have my say on this once.... & there it is...
I'll leave it at that......
its back to the fun things in life...

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Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:38 pm

Mr Harb you did not invent the wheel and you will not re-invent it either,

Silly guest! We are talking skiing here not wheels. You are in the wrong forum. Try the forum about car racing or ciclying.

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:18 pm


I agree with the gist of your post. So why does HH feel the need to discuss the derivation of vertical foot seperation?

In addition, in another post he starts in on the skiing of PSIA examiners. He cannot seem to stop the venom.

Postby hh » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:06 pm

Just returned from a great day skiing, ego snow, and lots of tracks.

Hunter the article is in the latest Ski Racing Magazine. I did not see it on line, it may not be posted yet. The intersting part is the total reversal of stance on stance. May be there is some listening and educating going on after all these years.

The irony is that PSIA credits itself for basing their understanding of skiing and their develop of mechanics on ski racing techniques. This is one time when someone has actually interpreted a photo series correctly. Credit goes to Ron for seeing the light. I was just wondering how long it will take for the truth to filter down to benefit actual instructors and people taking lessons.

Gosh - that seems a silly question

Postby John Mason » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:07 pm

The Mystery Guest said:


I agree with the gist of your post. So why does HH feel the need to discuss the derivation of vertical foot seperation?

I know there are people that think, and bluey kinda said this on the Aussie forum, that there is no best way to ski. But what if there is? This stance thing is one of those key issues. For Ron LeMaster to actually come out with a correct interpetation of ski stance based on the pictures he takes and studies would be a big deal since many use his book "The Skiers Edge". Many use Ron's prior comments on stance to support their inefficient methods of skiing.

For this type of turn around in thinking, why would someone not think that Harold would get excited about it.

Of course, the realization of this is not new, Lito TeJada-Flores on pages 58 and 59 in his book "Breakthrough on the New Skis" discusses the wide stance myth and how people (like Ron) have mis-analyzed it. (is that Harold in Lito's illustration on that page?)

Now the other major piece that riddles Ron's book and much of standard ski thought is what is the role of the outside leg to shape and/or initiate turns. These two issues define the major differences between efficient sking and the way most people ski or are instructed to ski.

(Look at that nice Phantom move Lito has of himself on the cover of his book. Isn't that pretty?)
Last edited by John Mason on Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Mason
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Postby Jeff Markham » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:11 pm

My two cents...

I've Harald's writings and have had personal conversations with him. I have never gotten the impression that Harald, literally or figuratively, claims to have either invented or re-invented the wheel (i.e., skiing). However, I believe that he can claim to be one of the very few who are espousing a narrow horizontal stance, along with other concepts such as inside foot tipping as a method for turning, etc. It may be that he was the first individual to differentiate between vertical separation and horizontal separation. Certainly, he did not invent the distinction, but recognized it and brought it to the skiing world's attention.

IMHO, PMTS is not a collection of proprietary techniques. IMHO, I *do* consider PMTS unique in that it has taken the "best of the best" and has integrated them into a comprehensive system that excludes non-productive techniques. Also, I believe PMTS unique in its incorporation of alignment and it has newly addressed the foundations of skiing instruction. It is this integration of complementary parts which is synergistic. The beauty of PMTS is that, taken alone, the techniques are excellent and you can receive value by implementing any part. However, PMTS is truly more than the sum of its technical components. Add in Harald's highly effective books, videos, and camps, and you have a formidable combination. I can personally testify that it instantly and drastically changed my skiing for the better. Note that I am not a PSIA basher -- I have only had one previous ski lesson and I don't know or care whether it was PSIA-based. It *is* possible to be a PMTS fan, but not an enemy of PSIA.

One thing to note is that the creation of PMTS was not a one-man show. It was the product of several individuals: Harald, Diana Rogers, Rich Messer, Kim Peterson, Bob Hintermeister, et al -- Harald has never claimed to be the sole fount of wisdom. However, he *is* passionate about his ideas and is uncompromising regarding his vision. He is clearly the person most identifiable with PMTS and serves as both an object of admiration and condemnation.

For years, Harald has been promoting PMTS techniques to a largely deaf ski-instruction community. I have no doubt that it has been *extremely* frustrating for him at times. He receives lots of effusive accolades from his clients -- and it should be noted that they came to him, not the other way around. However, his clients can't change the outside world of sking instruction themselves, except perhaps as a bottom-up movement.

So, when an outside authority (presumably not affiliated with either PMTS or PSIA) changes his mind about a wide stance and publicly says so, I can understand Harald's enthusiasm. He's only human.
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Postby Hunter » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:02 pm

Can someone please post the text from this article of Ron LeMaster so we can disccuss the original source.

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Hi Hunter

Postby John Mason » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:28 pm

Harold replied someplace that it was in the print edition of ski racing magazine, this month's issue. I would suppose this will end up on their web site at some point.

I'll keep my eye out for it. I'm going to Colorado for 3 days of skiing at 5am (I should go to bed), and I'll see if I can pick up the mag while I'm there.
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Postby Hunter » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:59 pm


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Postby Bluey » Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:21 am

JohnMason et al,

"I know there are people that think, and bluey kinda said this on the Aussie forum, that there is no best way to ski. But what if there is? This stance thing is one of those key issues. "

I just want to make my position crystal clear.
My position is that I prefer PMTS for myself as I am confident it will take me in the direction I want to go with my skiing skills and it's the method that I enthusiastically recommend to those who want to fact, if I see someone misstating the PMTS position then I will attempt to rectify the inaccuracy, as best I can.
As I've never physically met any PMTS instructors, other than the 2 aussie instructors, I am therefore reticient to get into any discussion on personalities or motives of the people I have never met.........

So having said that, I just wanted to clarify the comment that "there is no best way to ski".
As a generality, I agree with it.
But I only say this because I believe every person brings to their skiing a different set of needs.....some just want to goof around and others want to really hone their skills.
The goof arounders are not really skiing but that's the word they & a lot of other people apply to what they are doing.....
So, for some people, they may just want to just slowly snow plow their way along and as such PMTS may not be worth the effort for them.
I can think of other examples, I'm sure you can too.
I'm sure there is no "best way" for these type of people ski.

But, if we are talking about a niche market of enthusiastic skiers who want to improve their skiing skills and who you don't want to get swallowed up in the 90% who never come back then there needs to be a focus specifically on their needs.
I believe PMTS meets the criteria to do this and do it well.
I say this based solely on my experience with PMTS and what I would call commonsense.
So yes, if we move away from the generality, and move to the specific, then I concur with John Mason that, given my backgound, I also agree a "scientific" approach could produce a better/best way to ski for the large group of dedicated skiiers who are looking for some clear direction as to which is the best way to go.
I don't know how to achieve this aim........
but Harald efforts in explaining technique etc via his books , videos, camps and even this forum is certainly a clear signal that it is possible.

Anyway enough said by me trying to clarify my thinking......

In respect to a narrow my case, it has made a big difference to my skiing.
I really focused on it before I did my harb camp but I was struggling, however, once I got some instruction at the camp in technique etc it all came together........suddenly I was skiing slopes I would never have skiied and doing it with surprising confidence/fun. Yet it was only the previous year that a non PMTS instructor was telling me to widen my stance, shoulder width........frustrating........I look back on this now and laugh but it wasn't funny at the time....I sure there must be plenty more like me who are frustrated and feel that they wont ever be able to find a way to make that breakthrough that they feel they deserve.......

Well PMTS works, it worked for me.
Thanks Harald for creating this opportunty for me and for others like me.


PS aussie ski season bookings are now all locked in,....... all I need is for some snow......alas, not till June.......
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