Epic Posters

[Ken]

jbotti said

please don't waste our time as others have in the past with trying to convince everyone that PMTS is just what the PSIA intends but in a different package

Several of the PSIA Alpine Skiing Concepts can be construed to include PMTS techniques...or can be construed differently. They are obviously written by committee with something for everyone. And several of the Concepts are specifically not PMTS.

Flexon Phil said

There is not ONE way to ski well. If a system works...it works.

But there is one way to ski very well, and that all relates to how the ski reacts on the snow surface. In my experience with PSIA, CSIA, and PMTS, and from the viewpoint of being an engineer, PMTS produces the best results of ski-on-snow.

Everyone learns at different paces and speeds an methods.

Yes...and being the recipient of lessons from instructors using the techniques of PSIA, CSIA, and PMTS, I have learned more, faster, and have more fun on skis using PMTS techniques.


Ken

[ssh]

I would like to learn PMTS, it is just a few more tools that I will have in my tool chest of ski knowledge.

If you really learn PMTS, all your other tools will gather dust. Hows that for a slogan!

And, frankly, this is one of the things that makes it so difficult for me. Why the exclusivity? It's just skiing. Is there really only one "best" way to drive a pair of skis? Given the continuous evolution of technique, drills, and coaching on the World Cup, I have to believe that thinking and understanding are all continuing to evolve.

I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.

[Flexon Phil]

Yes...and being the recipient of lessons from instructors using the techniques of PSIA, CSIA, and PMTS, I have learned more, faster, and have more fun on skis using PMTS techniques.


Ken[/quote]
Ken, do you think the quality of the teacher and their ability to convey you the information could have had anything to do with this?

My wife says there are 264 ways to do the dishes...if so, there has to be more than one way to ski well.

[ssh]

Hey Steve,

No, it's not "one way". It's "one way" in that there's a clear progression through PMTS. Because, if you don't follow the drills, or can't do the drills, one is missing out on key PMTS stuff.

No one is saying there's only one way to learn, of course there's options. But if you choose PMTS, it's based on following a plan. You have to be able to do one drill correctly before you move on, for example.

Let's not go back to right or wrong. Like any product, it's not for everyone.

I'm completely with you on this, and I agree that for some (many? most?) people, it's important to have a clear path to follow. PMTS is definitely that. And it obviously has happy adherents.

I love to play with stuff--in skiing and in life. I also have a strong curiosity and I want to understand things deeply. It's part of how I see myself growing. FWIW...

[dewdman42]

Steve,

Glad to see you're going to try again here. FWIW, don't get hung up on some of the things I hear you saying now. That is pride talkin'.

Just read the PMTS books, listen to what Harald has to say and go away with as much as you can. Perhaps you will feel in the end that you have a broader base of knowledge, or perhaps you will become enlightened in such a way that you'll realize that some of the so called "knowledge" that is floating around out there is complete mis-information.

Either way, you will come away more informed in general about different possibilities.

I think the biggest obstacle to PMTS for someone like yourself, is the fact that in PMTS you will be asked to abandon certain things which you have spent a good deal of time developing as skills in the past. Lower body rotation(pivoting), for one. Somewhat equal weight on both skis is another. Other finer points I'm sure. But I really encourage you to earnestly try these things, and try to turn off those other "skills" for a while in order to fully test this out. It might really surprise you what you will find out. Don't get hung up about issues such as who thinks they invented what. Just absorb the knowledge and insights!

[ssh]

Pride? Huh? Care to be more specific about what you hear me "saying now"?

This is where we run into the first set of interpersonal conflicts that seem to be inevitable in any of these discussions. dewd, you've placed a bunch of assumptions into your comments there, none of which are accurate descriptions of me or my current thinking on my skiing. Why is that necessary?

[ssh]

Heya Steve,

One day soon we should take a day and go over to Arrowhead or Bachelor and work on stuff. Psst. Don't tell anyone, but I spend time over there on the green and blue runs. Great, really great, practicing terrain.

Just keep in mind I'm no ski model. I make mistakes, just like everyone else does. But I could definitely give you the 30,000 ft. view. I'd be psyched to, actually. Get the camera out, too.

I'm glad you're hanging out here.

I think I can beat you... at the making mistakes part! I think you probably saw where I'm coming from when we skied together. People, mountains, snow, and precision. In that order. But, always playing with my skiing to improve it. I have so far that I can go as I apply myself to it...

As soon as I get my consulting clients all happy again, I'll be planning some more on-snow time for me. I don't know that I'll get a lot more days this year just for me, but I'd really like to make one of them a "play day" for the two of us. We'll figure it out...

[dewdman42]

Pride? Huh? Care to be more specific about what you hear me "saying now"?

This is where we run into the first set of interpersonal conflicts that seem to be inevitable in any of these discussions. dewd, you've placed a bunch of assumptions into your comments there, none of which are accurate descriptions of me or my current thinking on my skiing. Why is that necessary?

Steve, relax. I'm not accusing you of anything. Just trying to help..

This is what you said earlier

And, frankly, this is one of the things that makes it so difficult for me. Why the exclusivity? It's just skiing. Is there really only one "best" way to drive a pair of skis?

I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.

I'm just trying to say, stop thinking so much about who is saying what or who is claiming what or this whole exclusivity issue that is bugging you. I claim that is pride talking. I don't mean that in a bad way, we all have pride man. I'm just saying, forget about that BS and pay attention to the skiing details...take everything you can away from it. The stuff you were concerning yourself with in those comments are BLOCKING you from learning.

good luck.

[ssh]

And, frankly, this is one of the things that makes it so difficult for me. Why the exclusivity? It's just skiing. Is there really only one "best" way to drive a pair of skis?

I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.

I'm just trying to say, stop thinking so much about who is saying what or who is claiming what or this whole exclusivity issue that is bugging you. I claim that is pride talking. I don't mean that in a bad way, we all have pride man. I'm just saying, forget about that BS and pay attention to the skiing details...take everything you can away from it. The stuff you were concerning yourself with in those comments are BLOCKING you from learning.

good luck.

It's an honest question, actually. Is there really only one way to ski well? It's probably not worth discussing here, since the opinions are likely to be divisive. I don't let much of anything block my learning, so please be mindful of reading into my questions and comments concepts and conclusions that aren't there. Just because I ask questions doesn't mean I'm not learning. Quite the contrary, actually.

The "only one way" concept is hard for me to swallow. That doesn't mean I can't learn some stuff to add to my repertoire. And it's not to say that I haven't already done so...

[dewdman42]

so are you here to challenge people because they are so fervently following one particular method and disbelieving yours, or are you here to learn about ours?

[ssh]

so are you here to challenge people because they are so fervently following one particular method and disbelieving yours, or are you here to learn about ours?

I don't believe that I've challenged anyone or anything. I have certainly not intended to do so. What you do, believe, understand, etc. is none of my business--or concern. I have nothing to proselytize. I've asked a question to which I don't know the answer. I am here to see what there might be for me to learn. It's the same reason I hang out on Epic and participate in various learning opportunities all over. For me, life is learning. And I love life.

Tonight, while reading on a completely different topic (about which I also like to learn), I read this: "You rarely defend the things you love. You enjoy them and tell others about them and invite others to enjoy them with you.

"Have you ever seen someone pull a photo out of their wallet and argue about the supremacy of this particular loved one? Of course not. They show you the picture and give you the opportunity to see what they see.

"...walls inevitably keep people out. Often it appears as though you have to agree with [everything] exactly as they are or you can't join. Maybe you have been outside the wall before. You know exactly what I'm talking about."

(From Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell, pages 27-28 )

When I read it, I thought of this discussion, so decided to post it. I don't know if it will mean anything to anyone but me, but it did mean something to me in this context (as well as the one he was actually discussing), FWIW.

[milesb]

Steve, sorry to be harsh on you, but your "honest" questions really take on an air of disingenuousness due to the endless repitition of them. There seems to always be some excuse you find to not give PMTS an honest try.
Dewdman is absolutely correct that if you hold on to TTS movements, PMTS will not be nearly as effective for you. Make it just another tool, and that's ALL it will ever be. Hence my catchy slogan . The payoff is at some point you will easily be doing skiing that many don't even believe to be possible.

[Ott Gangl]

>>>fervently following one particular method and disbelieving yours, or are you here to learn about ours?<<<

Dewdman, what's this about OURS? It's everybody's who bought one of the books, me and ssh among them, so it's mine too and thousands of others who are interested in including all or part of PMTS in their skiing.

And by asking questions someone is challenging you? Or whom? Me?

Posts like that rile me.

....Ott

[ssh]

Steve, sorry to be harsh on you, but your "honest" questions really take on an air of disingenuousness due to the endless repitition of them. There seems to always be some excuse you find to not give PMTS an honest try.
Dewdman is absolutely correct that if you hold on to TTS movements, PMTS will not be nearly as effective for you. Make it just another tool, and that's ALL it will ever be. Hence my catchy slogan . The payoff is at some point you will easily be doing skiing that many don't even believe to be possible.

Interesting. "Sorry to be harsh on you..." (but I'm going to be...)

FWIW, your responses really take on an air of disingenuousness due to your endless repetition of them.

Feel good? I didn't like it, either.

...and those kind of responses are a major reason why I get really turned off by the attitude of so many. It seems a requirement that I buy into everything all at once or I can't make the smallest progress. Skeptics need not apply, eh?

[dewdman42]

I have no idea what you're trying to say Steve, but if you hang around here and pay attention I'm sure you can learn more about PMTS and how it can help your skiing. good luck.