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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:55 pm

Guys, why argue about needing to discard anything learned in skiing? A skilled skier can readily switch from one learned system to the other without carrying one set of skill into the other.

In my sixty plus years of skiing and over three decades of instructing in three systems, I can ski pure old French down-unweighting, pure Austrian counter rotation-as-turning force, American Ski Technique and even the very old Arlberg technique of turn initiation by sinking while counter rotating to wind up then an sharp up-unweighting with a powerful body rotation yanking the skis around, and I don't need to have 220 cm skis to do it, I can do all of the above on my shaped skis. And I am not alone, skilled skiers everywhere can do that.

Now to PMTS, it is really a very easy system to learn, designed so by Harald in order to grasp it just by reading the books and seeing the videos and practicing what's prescribed. He breaks down skiing into primary movements and refinements thereafter. I can do it, my cousin Franz can do it as can Fritz. We play with it and really find it a relaxing way to ski, especially for us older folks.

Not once does rotating, wind up or unweighting come into play just because we are not skiing that 'other' system at the time. Maybe it is harder for skiers who haven't grown up in the mountains and skied since early childhood, I can understand that when you don't start skiing until you are 25 that you are ten years behind everyone who started early. 90+% of skiers you see on the hill are self taught and have acquired habits which are hard to discard, but they never could ski right in the first place.

Are you going to tell me that the PMTS certified instructors who in their day job ski and teach ski school prescribed maneuvers most likely influenced by PSIA four hours a day cannot switch totally to PMTS when teaching a lesson in that system? Just ask Arcmeister.

I don't think that arguments to that point are very useful.

....Ott
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Postby milesb » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:00 pm

When someone gets this:
It seems a requirement that I buy into everything all at once or I can't make the smallest progress. Skeptics need not apply, eh?

from this:
Dewdman is absolutely correct that if you hold on to TTS movements, PMTS will not be nearly as effective for you. Make it just another tool, and that's ALL it will ever be. Hence my catchy slogan . The payoff is at some point you will easily be doing skiing that many don't even believe to be possible.

Then I admit defeat.


OK, Steve you win. Harald is a fraud, PMTS will do nothing for you except empty your wallet buying books, we all steer our skis but call it something different, all roads lead to Rome, Harald has used voodoo to make us all angry people who don't enjoy skiing at all, any PSIA level 3 will be able to teach PMTS. Feel free to add anything else, my surrender is unconditional.

edit: to observers- yes there is a bit of history here.
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Postby Sidecut » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:25 pm

ssh wrote:
I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.


Let me explain it to you simply. PMTS is THE ONLY WAY for the public to learn how to ski if they want a complete comprehensible program that includes materials and texts produced for them, alignment services and on snow instruction. Ok? Get it? PSIA doesn't teach the public.

The proof is in the pudding. Most of the PSIA's own members cant ski. That's the truth. Can't buy a turn. So PSIA and it's system can't even teach it's own members. It's value to the public is negligible and it's value to the ski industry is ZERO!

Now why don't you get back to Epic and ban some more people that don't agree with you and Nolo. With a few thousand more posts and more examiner ass kissing you might finally earn your level 3
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questioning

Postby midwif » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:38 pm

Steve
Remember that this is the PMTS forum. Harald is the main moderator and the stated focus is discussion on PMTS precepts. There are many other forums available to the ski world at large to discuss different methods to reach skiing nirvana. (I think you know what forums I am referring to, ie Paula's :roll: )

Questioning the basics of PMTS foundations is counter productive. This forum has fielded this often enough that all further questioning has been deleted. It is not productive to the PMTS understanding. Its repetitive and HH seems to be sick of having to defend his excellent product.

Please ask that which furthers the PMTS discussion, not the "other way to ski" discussion. There are enough other places for that, epicski being one.

Many forum members here are members there! There is a lot of cross over. I think that many here are happy to welcome you and Phil. We appreciate your love of skiing. :D

Welcome to the PMTS forum, the place where your questions about PMTS foundations can be answered best. :)

Lynn
PMTS forum member, realskiers member, epicski member, skidiva member.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:47 pm

Sidecut wrote:
ssh wrote:
I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.


Let me explain it to you simply. PMTS is THE ONLY WAY for the public to learn how to ski if they want a complete comprehensible program that includes materials and texts produced for them, alignment services and on snow instruction. Ok? Get it? PSIA doesn't teach the public.

The proof is in the pudding. Most of the PSIA's own members cant ski. That's the truth. Can't buy a turn. So PSIA and it's system can't even teach it's own members. It's value to the public is negligible and it's value to the ski industry is ZERO!

Now why don't you get back to Epic and ban some more people that don't agree with you and Nolo. With a few thousand more posts and more examiner ass kissing you might finally earn your level 3
Kinda narrow minded thinking. There is no one way to ski or learn how to ski. Such as you question people at other sites for questioning PMTS, you are making blanket statements that other systems are Zero in value. I suggest you read "How to win friends and influence people", it would be a good read for you. There is a whole chapter about sales and not knocking your competition.
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Postby midwif » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:13 pm

Phil, Phil
What does this have to do with PMTS precepts. Sidecut is avid in his beliefs.
What question about PMTS do you have???

No food fights. You're too injured to participate fully. We want you at full FLEXION during transition to initiate your next...Pmts inquiry.
Hey, you seem like a good guy. Heal that ligment soon.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:20 pm

midwif wrote:Phil, Phil
What does this have to do with PMTS precepts. Sidecut is avid in his beliefs.
What question about PMTS do you have???

No food fights. You're too injured to participate fully. We want you at full FLEXION during transition to initiate your next...Pmts inquiry.
Hey, you seem like a good guy. Heal that ligment soon.


Not looking for a fight. I am intrigued by PMTS, anything that has this type of following must have some merrit/value. As I have said, anything to make me a better skier, I am interested in. I really do not understand the "This is the ONLY way" to do somethin theory. I might make 15-20 different turns in a single run, depending on conditions and terrain.
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Postby Sidecut » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:22 pm

[/quote]Kinda narrow minded thinking. There is no one way to ski or learn how to ski. Such as you question people at other sites for questioning PMTS, you are making blanket statements that other systems are Zero in value. I suggest you read "How to win friends and influence people", it would be a good read for you. There is a whole chapter about sales and not knocking your competition.[/quote]

First of all why dont you go back and read what I wrote again....slowly...take it in...ok..reread it. I didnt say it was the only way to learn to ski. You can go out and have your grandma teach you. It is however the only comprehensive system designed for and targeted to the public in the US. Get it? PSIA is not for the public. I don't know who it's for because it is a long long way from why it was founded. It's really a ponzi scheme.

For proof of the failure of PSIA's system of instructor training just look out on the hill. 80% of the public can't ski, isnt getting better, and has no idea what good skiing even looks like.
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Postby Freeskier » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:25 pm

Sidecut wrote:
ssh wrote:
I could be wrong, of course. But this "only one way" concept is very hard for me to swallow.


Let me explain it to you simply. PMTS is THE ONLY WAY for the public to learn how to ski if they want a complete comprehensible program that includes materials and texts produced for them, alignment services and on snow instruction. Ok? Get it? PSIA doesn't teach the public.

The proof is in the pudding. Most of the PSIA's own members cant ski. That's the truth. Can't buy a turn. So PSIA and it's system can't even teach it's own members. It's value to the public is negligible and it's value to the ski industry is ZERO!


So, let me get this straight....

PMTS is "The only Way". OK what happens in 10 years when (fictional character) Horb Harold starts STMP as the "Only way to Ski' Will we be able to bash you PMTS Green ,Yellow, Blue, and Black pin wearers?

Whaddya think?????

By the way Sidecut in youtr avatar, is that a PMTS patented " Banking Movement"
Now why don't you get back to Epic and ban some more people that don't agree with you and Nolo. With a few thousand more posts and more examiner ass kissing you might finally earn your level 3
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Postby Sidecut » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:39 pm

Freeskier:

You went through all that trouble to log on and register and that was the best you could do? Some off point hypothetical and really pathetic swipe at me.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:06 pm

>>>>For proof of the failure of PSIA's system of instructor training just look out on the hill. 80% of the public can't ski, isnt getting better, and has no idea what good skiing even looks like.<<<

My perception is that the 80%,and more, you speak of have never taken a lesson nor are they aware of PSIA or PMTS.

.....Ott

P.S.. I don't think Harald would approve of your language in some posts in this forum because first of all he is a gentleman.
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Postby midwif » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:44 pm

Ott, good point as usual.
Where are the mods? This has gotten out of hand already.
Too bad. :cry:
Sidecut is relatively new and opines rather brashly.
However, once again, there are others coming to question the validity of PMTS on its home ground.
It's pretty simple, you know guys, KISS....when on PMTS forum , ask PMTS oriented questions. On other forums, ask the questions that are reasonable there. Epic has a wide range, Pmts is focused.

Let's focus on questions of PMTS precepts in skiing. I love learning from you all.
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PS

Postby midwif » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:46 pm

NO FOOD FIGHTS HERE!
If you came here to get ketchup,yogurt etc, on yourself, just fuhhgeddaboutit.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:19 am

No where I have ever knocked PMTS. In fact I am not a proponant or detractor to any teaching method. I really do not understand the hostility, there is nothing I have done here (or at Epic) to warrent this type of attitude fron Sidecut.

Like Ott, I beleive 80% of the people out there who cannot ski have never either taken a lesson or took one and are self taught. That cannot be blamed on PSIA or any other teaching system. And quite frankly, 80% of those people are happy with the way they are skiing and don't want to spend the time to get better.
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Postby milesb » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:34 am

there is nothing I have done here (or at Epic) to warrent this type of attitude fron Sidecut.

This is true Sidecut, give Phil a break, he's a good guy. You can't just rag on every new poster here because they don't drink the koolaid.....yet :wink: Phil of course there are many ways to learn to ski....and wash dishes*....but I think you will find that PMTS is a great way to learn and ski. Since you aren't much on taking lessons, it will give you a comprehensive plan for coaching yourself. Feel free to get video of yourself trying things and post it here to make sure you are doing things correctly.

*The most effective being "Do the dishes now....beyotch!"

I don't know why my wife has to say that to me, I was going to do them anyways! :D
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