Ski Tuning- What is the best base bevel angle?

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Ski Tuning- What is the best base bevel angle?

Postby piggyslayer » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:59 pm

I always thought that it is 0 degrees for the bases of edges.
Now I am not sure anymore. The point on putting a ? degree bevel is not to have ski turn easy (that is a skidding nonsense talk) however, I think, ? degree may be practical maintenance of the edge.
Over time the edge base will get scratched and my practical experience is that it is very hard to use 0 degrees setting to get rid of these scratches.
I would have to stone grind the whole base to do that and I do not have the right tools.
With ? degree I would simply keep taking off a bit more of the bases near the edges to keep the edges smooth.

Am I right?
So is ? degree OK?
Would it make my ski skid more?

I would appreciate some expert advice.

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Standard edge angles

Postby JimR » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:49 pm

I think almost all skis have a 1 degree angle from the base and a 1 degree angle on the side, so the edge itself is a 90 degree angle but not flat from the base across. Some people do more of an angle on the side (2 or 3?? degrees) for a "sharper" ski (89 or 88 degrees).

I have no idea what racers (like downhillers or slalom) use.
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sorry, piggyslayer, igore my response

Postby JimR » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:51 pm

Piggyslayer,

Sorry, I didn't read your post all of the way through. I'm not the expert advice you are looking for.
JimR
 

Postby hh » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:55 pm

Diana and I both try to keep our edges at 1/2 on the base. This is difficult to keep at the beginning of the season, as the stones in the snow require frequent touch ups which eventually bring the base to a higher bevel. I resist bringing my good skis to a stone grinder unless they are really bad. If I do I have them make the bases flat. I add the 1/2 myself. But, to all recreational skiers, 1/2 is very aggressive and requires strong pressuring and edging ability. The skis will feel grabby and tempermental unless you ski them with authority. I keep my sides at 2 or three depending on the surface. Most ski company skis come out of the factory at 1 and 1. This is too soft for my liking.
hh
 

Postby tommy » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:27 am

Would it be true to say that the more beveling you have on the side edge, and the less (>= 0) you have on the base edge, the more aggressive the skis will be ?

I.e. if you want more edge hold, you can either increase the side edge bevel, or decrease the base edge ?

According to my Atomic contact, most Atomic's come with 1 degree base, and 3 degree side edge beveling.

Is there a way to "do-it-your-self" decrease the base edge, to e.g. .5 degrees , or does a decrease of base edge require a stone grinding of the base ?

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby BigE » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:08 am

It depends on the intent. Racers commonly do stuff like this --

Downhill/speed skiing: 1 degree.
GS/SuperG : .75 degrees.
Slalom : 0.5 degress.

I can't remember where this list came from, but apparently, these results were born out through actual testing. The given numbers produced the lowest times on each type of course.
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:12 am

Thanks for all the info!
I did not know that the base already has 1 degree. This explains why I had such a hard time using 0 degs on my tuning tool and removing any of the scratches.

I will try 1/2 degree (Maybe this will reduce my smearing the top C a bit). I wonder, if glide my tool many times set to ? deg I should be able to get the ? degree on the sides. This will remove some thin layer of plastic base around the edge making it a bit convex. Is this OK?
Harald, when you do it manually, you have to be removing some of the plastic next to the edge as well to get ? degree out of original 1 deg. Geometry is geometry, no magic there (or am I missing some trick?)

Skiing east this year, I end up on a thin cover with little stones here and there all year long and this is a real problem.
My new Atomic SL9.12 got already scratched and I have to work on the edges after each local trip (did not make it to VT this year but I heard that snow coverage was not very good). My tool measured a bit more than 3 deg on the new ski on sides, I made it 31/2 (which maybe a bit too much, but I love how these skis hold to ice).

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Postby tommy » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:53 am

Piggyslayer,

just curious: what tool do you use to measure the side edge bevel ? I've been looking for a tool allowing me to do just that, but haven't found anything. It appears to me to be a quite tricky thing to measure accurately, since the contact point of the side edge is so thin, only a few mm's....?

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby Mr. T » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:56 am

I have worked for a short time in a ski shop for free for I wanted to learn how they prepare skis (edges, wax, structures, etc..). and they prepared a lot of skis for racers.

Slalom (no bevel, 3-5 degree sides). However, this kind of preparation could "distroy" anybody who is not an excellent skier, almost a pro. Once
on edge a ski prepared this way will not come out easily if you are not technically very advanced.

GS (0.5-1 degree bevel; 3-5 degree side). Probably too much for an average skier.

SG, DH (0.5-1 degree bevel; 3 degree side)

One other thing that must be kept in mind is that when you create these high angles on the sides, they are difficult to keep and you consume a lot of the edges. Same, as HH mentioned, for small angles when you do the beveling.

My Head are 1 degree bevel and 2 degrees on the side. Pretty mellow
but good enough for me. I do not race in the WC or at a lower level, and
I prefer to keep my ligaments as they are rather than risk them for a more extreme turn. Then one never knows really, but ...

Interested in the right tools to do it yourself and swear a lot?
Check this site out:

http://www.race-werks.com/store.php?cat ... b_cat_id=9

I do not think that you will ever put your hands on a stone grinding machine unless you do it for a living (they are very expensive) but
if you are interested in creating your own structures on the bases of your
skis I can suggest a few websites. It is an art like that of tires in F1 races. Little structures on cold snow, larger structures on wet snow.... Kind of fun really. But if it is done badly it can damage your skis or reduce their life spans considerably.
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:50 pm

Tommy,
Here is the trick I used.
I have FK Tools tuning kit which allows me to dial the angle.
I have used it with Tungsten Carbide file insert, which is very sharp and smooth (requires care not to take off too much of the edge).

I have used a permanent marker to paint over the side of the edge (about 1 cm long) and using delicate touch attempted to sharpen the edge over the painted edge. (I have done it on the new ski).

I then would look on which side of the edge I was removing the paint. At 3 degrees I was removing it from the bottom, at 3.5 from the top. I repeated the experiment in 2 different places on the ski and found the results to be consistent.

I have redone the ski to be 3.5 and I am maintaining it at this bevel angle.

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Postby tommy » Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:43 am

Piggyslayer,

quite smart solution to the problem!

I'm a little bit surprised though that your SL9.12's were had 3.5 side edge; I have those skis too (and love them!) , and discussed edge angles with Atomic's Swedish rep several times, and he claimed its 1(base) and 3 (side). But maybe the tolerances are so small, that a .5 degree difference is within the margin of error...

An other question to the forum:

I hit some stone last time skiing, and one of my edges now has a "hole" which is oval shaped, about 1mm x 2mm in size, and 1-2 mm deep. The hole is in the side of the edge, so the side edge is not "continuous" anymore. I saw that my local ski shop claims being able to replace a "broken" part of the edge. Has anyone done such a replacement, if so, are you happy with the results ?

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:37 am

Tommy,
Maybe you could do a separate post, this is important topic, and may get buried deep in this thread so few will see it, I am in no need to do such replacement now, but would like to understand my options. Does it impact you skiing (do you feel this hole, is it better if you change your skis left to right?).

Also, I found that FT tools sells device to measure edge angles:
http://www.fktools-us.com/catalog/detai ... ber=MT3157

Does anyone know if there is a need to stone grind the base after re-working the edge from 1 deg to 1/2 deg base.
The result will be a bit convex base.

Thanks.
Last edited by piggyslayer on Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tommy » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:42 pm

Piggyslayer,

thanks for the tool-tip!

I spoke with the tuning-shop earlier today, and their advice was basically that "unless you race at expert level, you'd be better not replacing the broken edge".

I don't feel the broken edge while skiing, but I think I feel it (imagination perhaps ?) while riding T-bars.

Since the season is almost over, unless I go up far north, I will wait a few weeks before taking the skis to the shop to have them take a look. In any case, I'm considering doing a base grind, and in combination with that, decreasing the base edge bevel from 1 to 0.5 degrees, just to know what it does to my skiing. Since I'm going to the Hintertux camp, I'll have good opportunity to see if the edge decrease makes any impact on my skiing (and on the glacier, there shouldn't be any #?%!@ stones all around the place! :-)

Until then, I can always switch the skis, so I get the broken edge on the little toe side, where it shouldn't have much impact, I guess. The problem with this obviously is that eventually, the edges will wear down unequally..... :-(

Cheers,
Tommy
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