How to do "non-pure" carving with PMTS ?

PMTS Forum

Postby Ott Gangl » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:30 pm

Yes you are, SCSA, and you should always stick with the product that you are happy with and that serves you best. I'm glad you found a good fitting boot and liner, after all that is the single most important piece of equipment, if it doesn't transmit your actions correctly to the ski you are at a distinct disadvantage.

....Ott
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Postby -- SCSA » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:38 pm

Way to go, Ott!
This Ott guy -- I can learn from him.

I'm off to McCoy now, going to a friends ranch for dinner and fun.

Be cool, cheers! :!: :D :)
-- SCSA
 

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:13 am

Harald wrote:Should it not stop at some point or should it continue to amaze me that people who have never trained in PMTS, taken a lesson in PMTS, or earned an accreditation in PMTS, make such outrageous statements?


So I guess my opinion is not relevant? Sorry, but it is. Those that have never trained , taken a lesson, nor earned a PMTS accreditation happen to be your target market.

Harald wrote:ThPMTS not only addresses un-athletic skiers, it specializes in them.


OK, I'll bite... Traditional techniques for everyone, including the non-athletic get stuffed into the wedge. What does PMTS do?

Harald wrote: Does anyone still believe that the wedge is a better way to teach an un-athletic skier?


In the absence of evidence, I do. Anecdotal evidence like' "It works for me!", is enticing but not conclusive.

Harald wrote: We have hundreds of skiers come through the PMTS system for the specific reason that they could not make progress with the wedge based progressions. The real proof is in what these skiers do after they take a PMTS lesson. We have that documented as well; I can tell you that they don?t return to the traditional approach.


I guess I'll have to trust you on that.... It would be very interesting whether or not any negative comments get included in the results.

Harald wrote: I will be accused again of attaching PSIA, for making these statements. I am reporting what we found from the research gathered over the past two seasons, from over two hundred skiers. We collected this data from skiers who were able to compare PMTS and traditional systems. The responses are lopsided and not favorable for the wedge progression techniques. We are trying to give the skiing public a forum, let the skiers do the comparing and talking. Ski instructors and organizations have to protect their interests. PMTS for the first time and finally, is giving skiers the opportunity to compare systems and make a choice. I am not concerned about the future of PMTS, but I know who should be concerned based on what skiers said in their responses. Dr. Robert Hintermeister will present the findings next week at the International Congress of Skiing and Science. We will be publishing the results on our web site and the Congress will publish a book that includes all the presenters? materials. It will be available from the ICSS web site.


I am all ears. I can't wait to see the results. But I really am most interested in the first PMTS steps that one would make with a non-athletic skier.

Look, as you can see by my registered name/location I am not PSIA. I am not associated in anyway in supporting or dispersing their views. I am an unbiased member of the buying public that has been informed of a particular progression, has made it through the progression, and has used drills that I located on your web site to improve my own skiing.

I am interested in the focus of the system, and the replacement of the progression for new skiers. Don't be surprised that I currently favour the wedge for a beginner, it's all I know! How can I as part of the buying public compare if I am in the dark of the early parts of the PMTS progression?
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Postby -- SCSA » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:57 pm

Hiya BigE!,

Have you taken a PMTS camp? Any training other than the books and vids?

I didn't learn C programming just from books. I talked with others, found a mentor to help me.

I didn't learn business just from books, either. Sure I read some. But where I learned the most was from working with others.

So my analogy is, you can't expect to learn PMTS just from the books. You'll get a good idea, sure. But until you get in front of a trained eye... that's what you need to do.

Find a PMTS camp nearby. Or find a PMTS trained eye to watch you. If you can't find either, then your next best option is to come to CO, I guess?
-- SCSA
 

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:38 pm

-- SCSA wrote:I didn't learn C programming just from books.


I did....

-- SCSA wrote:Find a PMTS camp nearby. Or find a PMTS trained eye to watch you. If you can't find either, then your next best option is to come to CO, I guess?


In a perfect world, yes. But I don't have enough info to justify such an expense. And it's not about me anyway.

What I'm still asking is, "If no wedge, then what is the very first step, for a non-athletic beginner?" Suggesting that I go to CO makes it sound like cash is the key to unlocking this secret! :wink:

Cheers!
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Postby -- SCSA » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:31 pm

BigE,

I been in the biz for 13 years now. If you're telling me you went out and bought a book on C programming then went out and made a living writing C code, I don't believe you.
-- SCSA
 

Postby piggyslayer » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:56 pm

BigE,

You wrote:

What I'm still asking is, "If no wedge, then what is the very first step, for a non-athletic beginner?"


Books are not everything and they will teach you only so much.
But they will answer the above question.

Did you read Harald first book?
Did you see his first DVD/Tape (sold with the first book)?
Harald starts the book and tape even without skis with great tipping exercises!
His first exercises on skis are done on easy slopes and can be performed by everybody. They are both easy and not trivial.
They are easy because they are not scary and everybody can try them.
They are not trivial since everybody (even experts how never done them before) can learn from them.

Do more research; view the first tape, read the first book, before getting so critical.

You wrote:

In the absence of evidence, I do. Anecdotal evidence like' "It works for me!",

What is the evidence that wedge works at all as a training tool?
Piggy Slayer
let the piggy breathe
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Postby BigE » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:06 pm

-- SCSA wrote:BigE,

I been in the biz for 13 years now. If you're telling me you went out and bought a book on C programming then went out and made a living writing C code, I don't believe you.


Feel free to believe what you will.

FWIW, I started learning 'C' on XENIX after graduating from the University of Toronto with a specialist in applied mathematics in 1985. There were no mentors, as 'C' was very new.

I've made a living writing 'C' code, at every level from embedded C interfacing with assembly code on real-time systems, on parallel processors, using C with embedded SQL on VAX VMS, client/server TCP/IP stream based socket applications on SUN and Linux, and more. I still write 'C' code at times, but now my staff does most of it -- one of my hats is systems architect.... I still code the harder bits. :wink:

Cheers!
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Postby -- SCSA » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:47 pm

BigE,

You never took any training? Are you really going to tell me you've wrote every function, every class, and never had to ask anybody a question? Never had to have anybody look at your code?

If so, you are the world's smartest he/she/it and I take my hat off to ya. I thought I'd met some pretty smart he/she/its. But you're #1. What's it like to be the smartest he/she/it on the planet? Not only are you the smartest he/she/it, you could also be rich. I think MS has been looking for geniuses like you for years. :wink:

Hey look. I'm not raggin ya, but you gotta play fair. If you're tellin me you've never asked for any advice or help...c'mon!

So my point is this. You want to learn PMTS, you can only get so far in the book. Then it's time to seek out some advice, get some feedback. Agreed, there may not be feedback or advice that's easy to come by in your neck of the woods, wherever that is. I agree, that the advice may cost you a trip to CO. But if you're really into skiing and getting great, you'll make it happen.

I think you're trying to get all your answers electronically. You can get some help, for sure. But nothing replaces the trained eye.

Are you 10-4 w/me?
-- SCSA
 

Postby -- SCSA » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:09 pm

BigE,

One more note.

Now, I'm not cert'd at all in PMTS. Just a hack. But recently, I skied with a guy who was following just by the book. He asked me "What good do you see going on?" I had a hard time answering him. Maybe I was too critical on him, but he asked my opinion. What was I supposed to do, lie to him? He drove up from Denver to ski with me fer cryin out loud.

Now this being the case, as soon as I showed him some stuff, he was making instant adjustments.

So please. Get somebody to watch you. It'll save you time and get you to where you want to go all the faster. Isn't that what it's all about?

Be cool,
-- SCSA
 

Postby BigE » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:01 am

-- SCSA wrote:BigE,

You never took any training? Are you really going to tell me you've wrote every function, every class, and never had to ask anybody a question? Never had to have anybody look at your code?



By the time I got around to learning 'C' it was my 6th computer language. Getting the first couple languages down required more help.

-- SCSA wrote:So my point is this. You want to learn PMTS, you can only get so far in the book......I think you're trying to get all your answers electronically. You can get some help, for sure. But nothing replaces the trained eye.

Are you 10-4 w/me?


You are almost right. I do want to get answers electronically. But only to a very specific question: What I'm still asking is, "If no wedge, then what is the very first step, for a non-athletic beginner?" I know there are ski-less exercises, CSIA does that too, as I'd imagine, does PSIA.

I may be dreaming that there could be a single action that can replace the wedge.
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Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:38 am

BigE,

I don't think there is "one action" that replaces the wedge. Rather, I think there are more like a few things taught, that replace it. If I was to take a never ever, here's what I'd do.

1) Start them with Garland stepping, making sure to always lead with the downhill foot and put it down on its edge.

2) Then I think I'd start working on the Phantom Move.

Buy the PMTS Instructors Manual. It covers in detail, how to teach a never ever PMTS.

10-4?
-- SCSA
 

Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:49 am

Man :!:

After reading this thread again, I don't know why it took us so long to answer BigE's question. :?

BigE. Wanna know how PMTS is taught in the field? Wanna know how to replace the wedge? Buy the instructors manual! Doing so will answer your question and more.

Now I suppose BigE is all over us -- "How come you can't answer the question electronically, for free (after all, BigE has never paid for advice in he/she/its life, why start now?)?"Well BigE, there's a DVD of the instructors manual. Is that electronic enough for ya? :wink:

As far as free advice goes, BigE, a mentor once told me, "Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it." :lol: :)

Be cool,
-- SCSA
 

Postby piggyslayer » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:15 pm

"I may be dreaming that there could be a single action that can replace the wedge"

Why would you want something to replace the wedge?
Here is one idea: eat pizza instead of skiing on it! :wink:

I agree with SCSA. read the first book: Anyone #1.
This is what I said before: book answers you question on how
PMTS CAN BE introduced in a very systematic and not intimidating way to first time non-athletic skiers.
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:36 pm

Did you guys notice how the thread has ?evolved? from its original subject?
We are a chaotic bunch, and most claim to program in C !
Hey guys organize your thoughts use some OBJECTS no procedural C please! :wink:
Java or C# anybody? Or maybe even some Design Patterns?
So the idea is: use encapsulation.
Encapsulate conversation in each thread so it is representative to the thread initial subject.
Limit side-effects please!

PS. This tread is lost anyway so we can just continue? :)
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