How to do "non-pure" carving with PMTS ?

PMTS Forum

How to do "non-pure" carving with PMTS ?

Postby tommy » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:12 pm

I was skiing today in *very* icy conditions, and quite crowded slopes. By icy conditions I here refer to the icy bottom of the slope, that was built with machine snow when the season started. Now, when the temperatures have been over 0 for some weeks, all the "real" snow has almost vanished, and what's left is a really hard surface, kind of like blue ice.

Spending most of the day on the black runs, I quickly discovered that I wasn't able to carve under these conditions. Maybe if the traffic had not been so huge, I could perhaps been able to carve, but then using larger radius turns. Today, there wasn't room for that. So, in order to keep speed under control, while travelling in a quite narrow corridor, I experimented with very short turns containing quite a lot of brushing/smearing. I still tried to be very focused on the release, using SuperPhantom, and also focusing on tipping and maintaining the free ski at same angles, and keeping a narrow stance. I also tried to "reach" quite far down the fall line with my pole plants.

In the early part of the turn, I focused on keeping weight forwards on the skis, but I also noticed that to finish the turn, it was helpful to move back a little bit on the skis, and to do a slight push with the heels. Furthermore, I noticed that executing this type of turns was easier if I bent my knees more, i.e not standing "very tall" at all, this seemed to prevent the stance ski from slipping out of control on the ice.



To some extent (without any further comparison! :-) I'd say that the turns I executed bear some similarity with the one-foot and two foot release exercise in video #2, where Harald links very short turns, almost pivoting the skis around in place, carrying very little speed.

Now, what concerns me is that what I tried to describe above, sounds a lot like the traditional skidding techique, i.e. not very PMTS-ish at all....?

Using the "technique" as described above, I was able to negociate the fairly tricky conditions (lots of people were falling all around, or frozen still!) without much problems, but I'm somewhat worried about whether I've been putting non-PMTS movements into my muscle memory today.

I'd appreciate any comments from the forum on this.

Cheers,
Tommy
tommy
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:27 am
Location: Waxholm, Stockholm Archipelago, Sweden

Postby piggyslayer » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:14 pm

In the early part of the turn, I focused on keeping weight forwards on the skis, but I also noticed that to finish the turn, it was helpful to move back a little bit on the skis, and to do a slight push with the heels. Furthermore, I noticed that executing this type of turns was easier if I bent my knees more, i.e not standing "very tall" at all, this seemed to prevent the stance ski from slipping out of control on the ice.


This is very similar to my experience. I tried many different things on ice. Few work a bit, many did not work at all. One of the problems with my current skiing is that I have a tendency of smearing the top C. This is caused by bending the ski (applying pressure to the front of the skis) too early. I find that icy conditions give me an instant feedback if I grip in the top C or smear.

What works the best for me now is the strategy outlined by HH in the ?Speed control in pure carving? thread

[url]
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... c&start=15
[/url]

In a nutshell, I release bending both legs (two footed). I try to have neutral position in the boot during release (no pressure on either fronts or backs of the boots). I try to maintain the position with bent legs during the float feeling pressure in my heels. This is crucial for me, I have to have a brief moment when I feel the pressure on the heels (still no pushing on the back or front of my boot). After that I follow the regular strategy of tipping the new free foot and using hamstrings to move my balance a bit forward. This bends the skis in the upper C of the turn. By bending the knees and pressuring the heel, my overall position is a little on the aft side. Hamstring pull regains fore-aft balance. The result is a surprisingly short PMTS radius turn with good ice grip.

The moment of float with pressure on the heels and knees bent delays the ski bending action caused by hamstring pull just a bit. But this helps so much. The pressure on the fronts of skis is applied after the skis have established new edges. The way I think about it, when you release by sinking down on both legs, you move your center of gravity down, the forces are no longer in balance and the result is that your body moves down hill. Keeping this position for a moment allows for the center of gravity to move over the ski bases to the over side. At the same time, it takes a bit longer to establish fore balance. As result the skis bending action happens a moment later, after the edges are set.

I do that on Atomic SL9.12. Racing slalom skis help on ice.

I remember Harald told us that ?ski edges need to be born under you?, and that the edge transfer needs to be very fast on ice. I have not mastered doing that very well yet. When I try to think of switching the edges fast on ice I simply slip not grip. I hope we get some expert advice in this thread, and well, I think, I will be practicing tomorrow.
Halald promised us (in a different thread) a post about ice.

Piggyslayer
Piggy Slayer
let the piggy breathe
piggyslayer
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:27 pm
Location: New Jersey

Postby piggyslayer » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:16 pm

... and it comes up quite carved, yet short radius ...

Piggyslayer
Piggy Slayer
let the piggy breathe
piggyslayer
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:27 pm
Location: New Jersey

Postby hh » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:32 pm

Carving on ice with crowded slopes is a difficult task. Even when carving on slalom skis, speed builds quickly and passing is inevitable. You might notice on the world cup the racers rarely have a completely clean run without some scrapping or skidding to adjust for over speed in tight sections. This is the dilemma with shaped skis. They have a way of picking up speed, but it is mostly manageable as long as you keep the radius as tight as possible. Even on slalom skis, even if you are very good, a twelve meter radius turn is too large in crowded situations.

From a technical point all the PMTS movements are applicable, but with less aggressive lay over of the edges and body at the top of the arc. Bring it on more progressively, not all at once as you would in a carving ?high C? beginning. I call this the brushed carve. Maintenance of a slightly countered hip with engaged edges, produces a round but slightly feathered arc. Controlling the radius is done by ankle and foot tilting and great edge feel and control. Keep the hip tucked into the slope and keep the inside hand and arm moving forward through the turn so the upper body doesn?t rotate. When on slippery surfaces rotation can occur very quickly, if the hip and upper body are not held in check. Leg or foot steering causes a quick release of the hip and edges, so concentrate on the tipping of the ankles and feet, supported by hip and upper body angulation. Remember you are letting the ski shape and edge angles pull you through the turn. Strong flexing and bending of the legs at and through the release into the engaging phase are critical. Leg extension can develop but not too early, as too much pressure on an angled ski will cause it to accelerate. Try to extend after you pass the falline, as this will make the ski hold and finish strongly.
hh
 

Postby milesb » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:15 am

I don't understand "keep the hip tucked into the slope". Please explain.
User avatar
milesb
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Los Angeles

Postby jclayton » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:00 am

HH
just a smalll point , when you say the ski's edges must be born under you , do you mean born as in giving birth i.e. started or borne as in carried along under you . Perhaps a pernickity point but has subtle differences in my understanding .
J.C.
skinut ,among other things
User avatar
jclayton
 
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:37 pm
Location: mallorca ,spain

Postby tommy » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:40 am

Harald, thanks!


Would it be true to say that "pure" skidding occurs when the *entire length* of the skis move across the direction of travel of the body ("sliding"), while a brushed/smeared turn means that it's the tail section of the ski that moves (rotates) faster than the tips, the tips travelling more or less in the direction of the body ?

I experimented on inlines on a fairly steep slope. In order to control speed without using the brake-pad, I had to do very short and very quick turns. I noticed that to really control speed in the steepest section, it was helpful be somewhat flexed knees position, and to do a slight extention of the legs, or "heel-pushing" at the bottom part of the C. That resulted in a slight brushing/smearing with the backmost wheels, and really helped to keep speed down. Would this be somewhat similar to when skiing very short turns on steep icy slopes ?

Cheers,
Tommy
tommy
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:27 am
Location: Waxholm, Stockholm Archipelago, Sweden

Postby jclayton » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:33 am

Tommy,
I also found that exaggerated angulation helped a lot on in-lines , pole arch lift . My Husky pulls me along as well to add bit of speed .
J.C
skinut ,among other things
User avatar
jclayton
 
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:37 pm
Location: mallorca ,spain

Postby hh » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:08 am

When the body has a slight counter and the inside hand is forward the inside hip is tucked into the hill, relative to the slope after you pass the falline. This is felt by a stretch on the inside of the waist and back. The lower side of the body at the hip can feel a slight kink.
hh
 

Postby hh » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:47 am

A pure carve is a full commmittment of the body, tipping of the feet and the ski to engage, this develops such pressure and angle that the ski no longer moves downhill. The ski don't move out of the track the tips begin. The tail follows the same track as the tip. The tracks are easily seen on hard snow. As they must goudge two lines in th eise. Double rail carving as I call it, is easy on moderate slopes and the speed can easily be controlled by trun arc. But when it gets steep and icey only the best skiers can lay down the track. I see the PSIA types (examiners and trainers) losing their turns, banking, rotation and skidding in these situations. Their fundamental techniques, at least those that adhere to (and show in their skiing) steering, up movements and pushing the CM into the turn, have no chance.

It is best for the skier using that kind of technique to ski slower and just do a brushed carve where the ski has some skid through the whole arc.
hh
 

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:41 pm

Why do you keep taking cheap shots at members of PSIA?

"I see the PSIA types (examiners and trainers) losing their turns, banking, rotation and skidding in these situations. Their fundamental techniques, at least those that adhere to (and show in their skiing) steering, up movements and pushing the CM into the turn, have no chance."
Guest
 

PSIA types

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:02 pm

Could HH be referring to people that push the idea of outside leg steering thru active outside leg movements rather than inside leg tipping?

Could HH be referring to people that think a functional stance is hip width or even wider?

Could HH be referring to an organization that has no recommended approach for it's certified instructors to teach?

He probably isn't referring to the growing number of cross certified people that are both PMTS and PSIA certified.

So, if you teach a good method and are PSIA certified I wouldn't take offense.
John Mason
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: Lafayette, Indiana, USA

Postby hh » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:10 pm

Sorry if you think these are cheap shots, it is actually the truth. They are what theyare. Are you afraid to face the truth, you never face the truth, you hide behind words and false names. No one has ever called you out on the truth. Your system doesn't work that's the truth and how long can you continue to hide behind the corperate power of an organization that is flawed and fool the public. When will you realize you are doing skiers a dis-service. Don't come over here and call this cheap shots. The public has a right to know the truth.
hh
 

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:18 pm

I simply see what you have written as being painted with a broad brush. I think it sounds a little desperate to lump ALL PSIA examiners/trainers into one boat. There are a few pretty good skiers with a few more medals, and credits than you sir, making a few pretty good turns.

Your comments seem to be made by a very bitter man and again seem a bit unfair in terms of being sweeping generalities.

I also know a few PMTS instructors who aren't exactly setting the world on fire with their turns.

Again, what in the world would drive you to this sort of verbiage?

"I see the PSIA types (examiners and trainers) losing their turns, banking, rotation and skidding in these situations. Their fundamental techniques, at least those that adhere to (and show in their skiing) steering, up movements and pushing the CM into the turn, have no chance."
Guest
 

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:19 pm

What is the truth Mr. Harb?
Guest
 

Next

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest