Best tips

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Best tips

Postby HH » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:19 pm

How about the best tips instead:

I'll start,

"keep increasing tilt of the inside boot and ski through the turn until the point you want to release."
HH
 

Postby Randy Brooks » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:45 pm

Here's one from Rich:

"Take off your cat tracks before you try to step into your bindings."

Randy
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Postby Guest » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:04 pm

I know someone who got a horse as a tip. Another who got a gold Rolex, and another who got a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
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Postby jclayton » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:11 pm

HH
Regarding the continual tipping until the next release , I have experimented with an extra tip into the hill with the inside ski just before engaging the big toe . It feels pretty good , is it viable or perhaps just idiosynchratic . It exagerates the rolling of the ankles into the next turn .
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Postby rbrooks » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:24 am

Here's my serious tip, from Diana (constantly):

Keep your skis together.

In other words, balance is everything.
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Postby Ed Sharp » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:12 am

Randy,

I'm not new to teaching skiing, but I can't say that I know much about PMTS. I read the manual last year, but don't have the video, and I'm pretty open to anything that works for the student.

However, your comment above doesn't seem to make sense to me. I understand that standing on one foot or with a narrow stance requires better balance and can teach better balance by developing small stabilizer muscles and proprioceptive feedback, but I don't understand how a narrower stance facilitates being more balanced in an unstable, dynamic environment.

Isn't that like saying a motorcycle is better balanced than a car.
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Postby tommy » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:44 am

Ed,

I'm in no way an authority on PMTS, so others feel free correcting me. But, whatever it's worth, here's my (current) understanding of PMTS' approach to balance:

PMTS differentiates between balance and stability. Other names for the same concepts I've seen is "dynamic balance" vs "static balance".

PMTS focuses on dynamic balance, i.e. the ability to stay in balance in a non-static environment.

A wide stance will result in better stability ("static balance") like when kids learning to ride a bike using extra wheels. But on the other hand, stability is not what you primarily strive for in skiing, what you want instead is dynamic balance, which allows you to counter the forces during a run with small movements.

Like in your example with a motorcycle: A car is a stable system because its CM rests low, and between the wheels. It posesses stability, whereas a motorbike is by construction an unstable system, but can easily be kept in balance by countering the forces with relatively small movements.

I'm not good enough a skier to make a statement based on my own experience on the pros and cons with a wider stance, but I'm daring to say that when riding inlines, making very tight & quick turns, a wide stance will make it almost impossible, while a narrow stance allows you to "carve" very short turns in balance.

To connect the above back to cars vs. motorbikes, my take on skiing (and inlining) is to ride them more as a motorbike to achive dynamic balance, not as a car, striving for stability.

Cheers,
Tommy

PS: wrt. the example with kids on bikes with training wheels: having raised 2 kids, and taught them to bike using training wheels, I noticed in both cases that they learn an "erroneous" way to turn the bike with the xtra wheels: in order to turn, they lean to the outside of the turn. And when the training wheels are removed, they have to relearn their turns to lean inside...
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Postby jclayton » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:05 am

Good one Tommy ,
the car/bike analogy is actually pretty accurate , look at a trail bike off road , over bumps ( or rounding up sheep in Oz ) . Skiing terrain is analogous to this , bumps ,powder etc . A wide stance is fine on motorways but you lose it " offroad " .

By the way I only just realised I had messages Tommy and will send replies .
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Postby Ed Sharp » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:38 am

Tommy,

Thanks for the reply. I definitely understand the difference between static vs dynamic balance, although the training wheels analogy probably doesn't work well in this case, because training wheels force the bike to stay nearly vertical.

But I still don't think I get the philosophy that if you are moving, a narrower platform is better. If you ski across a patch of ice or a pile of snow, or just an unseen little roll in the hill that changes the pressure on the skis, won't you be more likley to get thrown off balance if you are skiing with your feet too close together?

There is also a philosophy that I have heard, that says that a wider stance is better because when you angulate to acheive edge angle in a narrow stance, the inside leg gets in the way of the outside leg and limits angulation. How do you overcome this with your feet close together?
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Postby rbrooks » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:54 am

Yeah, what Tommy said.

I'm a student, not a teacher, but if my skis are apart, (1) my weight is between my legs (no jokes, please), and I have much more trouble lifting or lightening my inside ski, and (2) I simply can't tip my free ski to the inside edge as easily or as far as I can when my skis are together. So I can't release my free ski, transfer my balance or engage the stance ski.

It's easier to be stable with a wide stance, but that's not what I'm looking for.

Randy
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Postby tommy » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:59 am

Hi Ed,

I agree that the training wheel analogy, car/motorbike analogy etc. can only be applicable within limits. Just a few more thoughts on the wide vs narrow stance issue (to beat the already dead cow even more ! ;-) )

If you ski across a patch of ice or a pile of snow, or just an unseen little roll in the hill that changes the pressure on the skis, won't you be more likley to get thrown off balance if you are skiing with your feet too close together?


I guess that in the situation you describe, it might be beneficial to have a wider stance. However, the question is if you can get the stance wide enough: the CM of a human body is quite high up, so to counter any sudden slip of the downhill ski, and remaining in stability, the stance would have to be *very* wide. Connecting to what JC said, maybe it would work on "the freeways" of skiing, i.e. perfectly gromed slopes, but as soon as there are bumps/slush etc, it appears to me that the wide stance would make you bounce all around.


There is also a philosophy that I have heard, that says that a wider stance is better because when you angulate to acheive edge angle in a narrow stance, the inside leg gets in the way of the outside leg and limits angulation. How do you overcome this with your feet close together?


Somewhere in the books/videos, Harald talks about this. And you can actually see quite a lot of distance between his feet when you watch the section on carving. Whats happening there is that the separation of feet is vertical distance. As you state, to overcome the fact that the inside leg gets into the way, the feet separate *vertically*, while the legs still being close.

cheers,
Tommy
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Postby jbotti » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:54 am

I am by no means an expert but it seems fairly clear to me that the reason to ski with ones legs close together is becasuse it is substantially easier to engage the edges. This is simple physics. The truth of the matter is that it may actually be harder to balance with the skis closer togother (at least at first). What I learned at the All Mountain camp last weekend at A-Basin is that control in skiing comes from the engagement of the edges (the earlier the better) and early edge engagement is greatly enhanced by skis that are close together. Besides the early engagement, when the skis are wide apart (becasue you are fighting physics) you are more inclined to use the upper body to help engage the edge, thus destroying the dynamic counter activity the needs to occur between the upper and lower body.
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Postby hh » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:13 pm

Great discussion, I wish I had been here at the beginning. Today I was up at Loveland for race training , coaching Diana. Those who know her will be glad to hear she is skiing well enough to win the National Masters Championship in two weeks.

About narrow vs. wide stance "again'?, this stance issue is completely dependant on your balancing ability, edging and ability to stay balanced at the early part of the turn (High C) and through the turn. If your feet are wide and you have not yet learned to transfer or shift weight, a wide stance retards your progress. This is the case with most intermediate to advanced skiers and many ski instructors. To learn dynamic and energy driven shifting of balance and body position, from one side to the other, you have learn the release with what we call the phantom move or release leading with the little toe edge tipping, which is easier with a narrower stance. After you can build energy ?bend the ski? due to balance on the outside ski and a proper release, you can learn to two track with the inside ski in contact with the snow.

When I say narrow, I'll not talking about feet locked together, as Tommy already pointed out, but for learning skiers the fastest way to carving and developing more angles is through a narrower stance. Narrower offers a quicker edge shift and movement of CM into the turn at lower speeds and energy. It also gives the learner more ability to lead with the little toe edge tipping movement.

The high "C' part of the turn can not be accomplished with a wide stance (especially for those learning it to ski all mountain conditions, anything but groomed). After you have learned transfer of balance and can do it well while skiing at twenty to thirty miles per hour you can begin tilting farther with the inside ski and increasing weight on the inside ski as with the Weighted Release and double tracking.

Skiing is a game of constantly pushing your balance to a new level. Inside ski pressure can be increased once you know how to balance on the outside ski perfectly. If you can balance perfectly on the outside ski though turns you will appreciate whether or not you are losing your balance by widening your stance or increasing pressure to the inside ski. I don?t advocate feet or skis locked, unless it is for a specific need, exercise or learning purpose. But there are many of these situations on the path to expert skiing. Narrow functional stance means four to six inches apart. For those who have experienced how a narrow stance can immediately increase skiing performance, you know how much it contributed to your development of other movements and skiing on all conditions. Most skiers on the slopes ski very poorly due to their wide stance. It inhibits their progress because they are not balancing and therefore substitute foot steering, twisting and upper body rotation to compensate.
hh
 

Postby hh » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:00 pm

At the point of release not only lighten and tip the free foot, but pull the foot back and hold it back while tipping.
hh
 

Postby -- SCSA » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:59 am

Great stuff.

PMTS stuff that has taken my turns up a notch this year.

1) Tipping!
Keep tipping the free foot to the LTE as you move through the turn. A little to start the turn, then more, then really crank it over as you finish the turn.

When you keep tipping, the big toe comes over naturally. And, the tipping movements are what make a nice round, snappy turn.

2) Focusing on parallel shins. There's only one way you can achieve parallel shins that I'm aware of -- release the stance foot to start the turn.

3) UBC
I don't let my poles drag or hit the ground. I focus on keeping my tips in front of my heal peice and two knuckles up. Some have commented that my style is "Stein like" or "old school" but it's working for me. I've seen a big improvement in my bump skiing, in particular. I'm better all mountain, too.

But when you see me come down the hill, I do look different, that's for sure. My poles don't hit the ground or drag behind me. Ski instructors don't even do this. But like always, I'll let HH be the judge! :wink:

4) Balancing on my edges
I wasn't getting a carve on ice and it was buggin me, big time. I demand a carved turn just about all the time. So, like always, I plug in 2 to figure it out.

The cure, was when I went out the next day and practiced the drill where you make carved turns just by moving your body over the stance ski.

So this drill combined with pulling my free foot up toward my chest (a move Diana showed me), I've been gettin a carve on ice since.
-- SCSA
 

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