PSIA is starting to accept the PMTS?!

PMTS Forum

PSIA is starting to accept the PMTS?!

Postby Mr. T » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:28 am

I am with PSIA-Central even if I have been into PMTS since Harald's
book (at the beginning it was one book, with a yellow cover)
first appeared.

Yesterday, I went through the process of my certification with PSIA (just level 1; I am ready for level 2, but cannot attend all seminars and teach the hours my ski school requires to let me go through the certification process) and a little to my suprise I heard the following:

1. "There are other approaches to direct parallel (PSIA is beginning to move in that direction too, at least judging from their most current pubblications): for instance PMTS, Elan and Rossignol..."

I have no idea what the Elan and Rossignol methods are supposed to be,
but I know the first one :wink:

2. Several times the concept of retraction of the inside leg to be under the hips and creating a progressively increasing angle was stressed.

3. Some instructors at my ski school told me that at level 3 (getting harder and harder: 4 passes out of 26 students!) they've got a hard time because they were not skiing with their skis together. And they told me that I was right when I claimed that feet together is the way. I explained to them that it is not an idea of mine but something I've got from PMTS!
I was the world champion of wide stance! And it took me only (!!) 2 years
to ski with my feet very close together or really together.

4. I had little doubts about passing the exam (level 1 is fairly easy) but I wanted to see my scores in free skiing. Well I have got 5, which out of a 1-5 grade system means (constantly exceed the standard required by the level he/she is trying to get certified for) and we skied in pure ice, not icy conditions, pure ice, after a rain the night before. I could not even dig with my pole into that ice! Sure my skis chattered a little bit, but I did not slide a single time on a 1/4 of a mile run. Turns were nice and round, at one point I even got cocky and got into short turns! I felt sure enough to take my chance during the exam. The tipping action of my inside leg, the flexion and retraction, made me capable to hold on to my edges for dear life. I wish Harald saw me, for I think that my pole plant has never been so much on time. But that's a story for next year. And Harald says I could flex more. I cannot wait to see the results if I truly learn to flex even more. Triple blacks get ready for I am coming!

5. 3 people at my school (a PSIA thing) bought Harald's books since I
began advertising. And some top guys are beginning to be puzzled by my
progresses and entertain the idea to have Harald to hold some kind of seminar on snow. Eventually this maybe a decision driven by committee but the interest in some people in my PSIA-oriented ski school for PMTS
cannot be denied.

So, I think that the dicothomy either with the PSIA or against is a little bit less hard than it looks.
Mr. T
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:57 am
Location: California

The difference you will run into boils down to...

Postby John Mason » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:40 pm

Most of PSIA instructors at all levels still believe leg steering is an intergal part of skiing. (gosh - it took me months to unlearn that)

The ones that are critical of PMTS think its a "marketing difference". Well, it's not, it's structural.

Books like Lito, Craig, Eric and Rob, and Harold's are on the same wavelength. Books like Ron LeMasters and most others are not.

The point of division is what is the best way to turn the skis. Even when tipping is in the PSIA methods, they still encourage active leg steering to "shape" the turn. Mention the word "Stance" leg and you'll get an emotional response from many. This is becuase many of the more traditional PSIA instructors recognize the concept of a stance leg that is passive in turning is utter anathama to their thinking. Even once you complete the traditional PSIA parrallel progression my understanding with no personaly direct knowledge is that the leg steering persists.

But, even if the phantom move is mis-understood, it certainly works as your results testify to.

From what I see, as long as PSIA approaches and coaches still adhere to leg steering as an active component of how you best turn the skis then there is still a pretty wide technique chasm. I did read a news article that PSIA is now less structured and allows for more variation in what a teacher wants to teach. This is oppisite of adopting a good program or endorsing a best program for student progression - so that's bad, but at least there is less resistance if someone in PSIA wants to teach PMTS.

I'm not involved in teaching at all. Since you are in the middle of this, is my above impression correct?

Above all - congratulations!
John Mason
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: Lafayette, Indiana, USA

Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:00 am

I tell people on the chair about PMTS all the time. What I've found is that you just can't have any predjudices or preconceived ideas. Here's what I mean.

The other day I'm riding up with this really good looking ski instructor dude. I'm thinking to myself, "He doesn't give a sheet, he's just here to schtoink a few rich chicks/dudes, parade around in his superman suit." Wrong! Turns out the guy was really into ski technique, really interested in PMTS. So now, he'll really get a big tip! :wink:

Tourists get off on it too. They may only ski a few days a year, but by gawd the few days they're out there they want to tear it up! They love hearing about PMTS too, even though I figured they wouldn't, because they only ski 10 days a year.

Cool stuff. 8)

Postby HH » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:49 pm

Thanks for your post, Mr T, it was never my or intent to keep PMTS and its content away from PSIA. We offered our manuals and information freely as long as they footnoted properly where they excerpted our materials. Initially, the PSIA refused even to acknowledge that PMTS worked or would work. (when I heard from them they would say either ?We have always used what Harb has written or they would say Harb?s stuff doesn?t work.) Clearly these statements are both incorrect. If they were correct it would mean: ?that PSIA was always using methods that didn?t work.?

Now there is plenty of evidence that PMTS works and not only well, but better than anything anyone has ever seen in skiing. I have been working with central division for years and have many loyal supporters including ed. staff members. These people have been working hard to get PMTS accepted in Central and are having better success every year. We know the Elan system is PMTS based because we trained them, the Aspen Magic system is based in PMTS because we know they bought our manual. I don?t know anything about the Rossingnol system.

The ski industry is slow to change, but quick to knock off other people?s ideas and materials. Even if PSIA adopts our PMTS Direct Parallel it will not result in a successful method, as John so appropriately states, as long as they continue to use steering to turn, skiers will end up in the same dead end movement pool.

In addition, unless they teach skiers to stand on one foot and give up the failed idea of two footed, wide stance, evenly wieghted skis, skiers will always have difficulty learning quickly. These basic concepts built into PSIA's teaching system hold skiers back and frustrate good instuctors. The bad ones can't tell that there is anything wrong with a wide, two footed stance for beginners.

Postby Pierre » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:02 pm

I work at two resorts. One resort teaches direct parllel exclusively to beginners. The other will fire you if you teach direct parallel. The SSD of the one that will fire you is the head of the Education commitee for Central.
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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Akron, OH

Postby HH » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:44 pm

That is too bad, but some one has to be the last man standing as the rest of the world around sees the light. I feel sorry for people like him, and the people who teach at his ski school and the people who take lessons there. In the end, they are also the ones that fall, the hardest!

Postby Pierre » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:38 pm

E's a died in the wool traditionalist with a slight wedge in his parallel initiation most of the time. :D
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Akron, OH

Postby HH » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:47 pm

It is possible, if someone showed him his turns in slow motion video and than took him out and taught him the Super Phantom he could be converted.

Postby Pierre » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:09 pm

No way HH, he is an examiner :wink:
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Akron, OH

Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:10 pm

Hey look. It's Juan Pierre!

I knew it. I knew he couldn't resist being where the action is. It won't be long now, before Your Highness makes an appearence too, I'm a guessin.

Hey Juan Pierre. Coming out to the home office this year? Think you can find enough loose change to make it over the pass and make turnz @ the Big Show with yours truly? :P

hey SCSA

Postby -John Mason » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:40 am

or maybe he is coming here since you can't go over there? Are you blocked on epicski? I see you had - well - thousands of hot little posts there in years past but nothing recently.
-John Mason

Postby HH » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:24 am

Paul, we don't need the antagonistic atmosphere on this site or forum. This site is for information, lively discussion, and intelligent conversation. If it degenerates to name calling and insults, I?ll pull the plug!!

Everyone is welcome as long as there is positive interaction.


Postby HH » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:26 am

Pierre, so what you are saying is that the emperior has no clothes and no one is going to tell him.

Postby -- SCSA » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:09 am


I'm not going to be held responsible for HH leaving the forum. Because that's exactly what's going to happen if I stay.

What's going to happen now is that HH will start to get emails; "Dear HH. I'd like to hang out in your forum but as long as SCSA is there, I'm not coming. If you can get him to leave, I'll be happy to join."

They're being drafted now.

NO ONE seems to be able to take my online personna, that's cool.

So I'm outta here.

Harald. Don't ever use my name in public again.

See ya,

Postby Skiing in my mind » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:33 am

Come'on SCSA (Skiing Confederate States Army?) there is room for everybody in this forum. We need you here.
Tell us of how you managed to move and live in Happy Valley. What's the secret? You just were rich enough not to have to worry about a job or what? Your words of wisdom would be truly appreciated.
Skiing in my mind


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