Super-phantom ?

PMTS Forum

Postby Jeff Markham » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:41 am

Words certainly mean different things to different people. When I was starting with PMTS, I had problems with the word "flex" as described in the release. To me, "flex" was what you did to your bicep to accentuate it (i.e. "bulging"), not the movement of the forearm toward the upper arm. I had to ask Harald what he meant when he used the word "flex".

"Collapse" as a term works for me. However, now I'm working on "sucking my knees up" towards my chest. That one, at least, I understand, even if I'm still working on the execution.
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Postby -- SCSA » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:03 pm

Hi Jeff,

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collapse is the wrong word. If collapse works for you then go with it! :!:
-- SCSA
 

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:20 pm

Many words can be attributed to a meaning and or description for flex, but if you read the complete description of what the outcome is for any segment in the book 2 where flexing is used you can usually keep the word in context. For example, to release a turn, the stance leg must be flexed, shorted or bent. When the leg flexes or bends the CM can move more directly into the next turn. If you read this with a meaning for flex that indicates (muscle contraction) you will not move into the next turn, in fact you will probably keep turning until you stop in the woods somewhere.

Page 136 book 2 ?as you flex the inside leg draw it up along the outside leg? On page 137 in ?Cues for success? Tip the inside ski and shorten that leg to pull your body into the turn.
Page 135 Fig, d. ?Relax your legs giving into the forces? Fig. b page 131 ?relax and flex.?

There are numerous references in book 2 to flexing in conjunction with relaxing and flattening, to release the stance ski. The photos show that this advice results in bending of the leg to make it shorter for the inside of the turn. Although next time I write about flexing the leg, I will include bending, shortening, squatting and crouching. I hope I don?t have to go as far as using cowering.
Collapse might another alternative!!
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Postby HH » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:22 pm

Sorry I forgot to sign in that is my post.
HH
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Postby Jeff Markham » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:27 pm

SCSA: Absolutely ditto. Sorry if my message came across as defensive -- it was completely unintentional. Darn this Internet...
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Postby Bluey » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:11 am

In respect to the term of flexing.......I'll throw in and say that this term for me was initially confusing too.

I appreciate what Harald has to say on this subject and with hindsight it's laughable to expect he would need to resort to "cowering" but if you've come from a disfunctional lot of TTS ski instructors who used confusing and often contradictory jargon then, yes, for me , trying to understand what Harald meant by flexing took some time..........but its wasn't difficult to work out......enough said about that......just wanted to give some feedback on the term flexing.
I agree with Harald's suggestion ( I presume he was being serious) that, in his next book, he defines/elaborates on what he means by flexing.



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Postby Bluey » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:25 am

I just wanted to add my bit about the Super Phantom move.

As has been already said above, its not the Weighted Release ( WR ) and its not about Lightening ( a la Video 2) versus Lifting ( a la Vid 1) .

It occurred to me that there are other people beside us, ie the us who have already been to a Harb Camp, versus those other people who are reading this particular thread and may feel a bit lost by the jargon...... so I thought I would jot down exactly what Harald says in Video 2 about the SP move so that this thread can focus on exactly what we are trying to get our heads around and at the same time not lose the Non- PMTSers......here goes...

To paraphrase the video # 2 :

The 4-5 elements of the SP are....

1. Transfer balance to the uphill edge of the uphill ski first.
2. Hold and traverse on the uphill ski while you prepare the free foot.
3. Keep the free foot tucked back & in toward the stance foot through the turn.
4. Tilt the free foot boot toward the outside edge.
5. Keep the free foot & ski tilted onto the uphill edge whilst you progressively release the stance ski.



OK so that 's appparently it.....others may wish to elaborate but my observation on this is that there is no push off. In addition there is some active ankle involvement( Point #5) by the stance ski ( alignment/proper footbed are crucial for this). I would also add that there is no explicit mention of any lateral movement of the hips to assist with the transfer of balance to the uphill ski........."turns are born under the hips..........".

I think confusion can arise about the transfer of balance to the uphill ski ( point # 1 ). You don't need to push from the ( old ) stance ski to do this.....lateral movement of the hips to assist with the transfer of balance to the uphill ski as well as simultaneous flexing or collapsing the stance sking brings the free foot ski into contact with the snow/slope and by lengthening this uphill leg balance is transferred.........( as Lito would say...."six of one, half a dozen of the other".......) but only if the actions in doing this are decisive/committed and the uphill ski leg is strong enough to take the sudden weight committment. On the last point, this is one of the reasons why leg exercises are so important as they build up strength in the legs. Without sufficent strength then progress will be limited. PMTS is not a substitiute for proper physical conditioning. Obviously to be decisive and committed then getting your timing and balance right before intiating the turn is vital...........anyway , IMHO that's the theory as I understand it........

I notice in the video that Harld demonstates this on blue slopes and only in one other main video sequence is he on a steep when he transfers balance to the uphill ski......which says to me that the Super Phantom is especially great for steeps ( speed control ) so long as the above 4-5 points of advice are followed and its executed at the High C of the turn and also its OK to do it on cruising blues....but if you're not on a steep and you want to dial up the fun then the Weighted Release is the way to go for me...........


Gotta go...


Bluey




Last one down's........
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Postby tommy » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:57 am

think confusion can arise about the transfer of balance to the uphill ski ( point # 1 ). You don't need to push from
the ( old ) stance ski to do this.....lateral movement of the hips to assist with the transfer of balance to the uphill ski
as well as simultaneous flexing or collapsing the stance sking brings the free foot ski into contact with the
snow/slope and by lengthening this uphill leg balance is transferred


Bluey,

excellent clarifying post! You are absolutely right, it was #1 (quoted above) that got me confused, and got me starting to experiment with the push-off. When I did the push-off "exercise" last weekend, I could much better "engage" the little toe edge, but I also noticed that the push-off tended to "break the flow" of turns. Yesterday I practiced the SP again, but this time, using the input from this thread, I instead focused on the flexing/collapsing/bring-the-knee-to-the-chest approach, and it was clear that this is a much better way to achive the SP in linked turns, maintaining the "flow". However, with this approach, I wasn't able to "hold" the little to edge for very long, but I guess that's not the idea anyway when doing linked turns.

Last weekend, I was more focused on the foundations of the SP, and working on individual turns, one by one, exaggerating the amount of time on little toe edge, as an exercise to getting familiar with SP, and the "push-off" helped me "getting to the inside edge". Yesterday, I tried to "use" SP in consecutive turns ("putting SP to use") and it was obvious that the push-off was detrimental, while the flex/collapse/... was the right way.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby rbrooks » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:12 am

The potential for pushing off is one of the main objections posters on the EPIC board have to PMTS. And Harald is adament that pushing off is not part of the PT or the SPT. I'm glad we're now all in violent agreement.

Randy Brooks
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Postby tommy » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:49 am

A final thought on this topic from my part: I was just watching video #2, the part on the one-footed and two-footed release exercise. Just wondering if the one-footed release isn't a "static" version of the SP?

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby Bluey » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:36 am

Tommy,

I agree......... the one-footed release has all the elements of the SP.


In the Instructor manual the sequence of different Releases is as follows :

The "Green to Blue Progression" Chapter has the Two-Footed Release;
The "Blue -Black Progression" Chapter has the One-Footed Release;
The "Black Progression" Chapter has the Weighted Release.

In the SP, the main purpose of practising keeping the uphill ski on its LTE ( and not tipping TOO quickly to the BTE ) is that it gives the downhill ski ( old stance ski) time to flatten/release. Without this delay the C of M moves TOO quickly into the turn..........
By way of note, I think having a Strong Arm position would assist the shift of lateral balance at the transition ( C of M ). If a good Strong Arm is not already in position Before the transition then the timing of shifting the hips/weight at the very end of the old/very beginnig of the new turn to achieve balance over the new uphill ski will be all the more difficult.

( As has been said by others....... getting the flow right is important..... in the end, skiing down a slope is a process not a series of discrete events.........and for me, its more fun if it feels like its flowing.....).


From another viewpoint, in the Video 2 demonstation of the 0ne & Two Footed releases, Harald is seen holding onto his uphill pole and if you watch the sequence closely as he makes the turn his uphill pole arm finishes the turn in a very high position. As a generalistaion,..... this is part of the Strong Arm technique.....


A good demonstation of the SP being put into a flowing series of turns can be seen in the 9th minute of Video 2 at about "Transfer balance" thru to "Release Exercises" sections.


Great topic Tommy!!!......Thanks....it's made me think/apppreciate how the different exercises in Video 2 are part of learning the different releases and under what circumstances I would use them....before this thread I mostly just preferred using the weighted release but, as Harald has already mentioned, the High C part of the turn is not where you use the WR ....rather for the High C it would appear the SP is the most effective to maintain continuous ski pressure throughout all the turn ...........

I'm off......time to hand it over to the next time zone to carry the torch.....



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Postby BigE » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:53 pm

The more times I re-read this thread, the more I think that one can make the analogy of transferring weight to the upper LTE is like backpedalling on a bicycle. The whole turn can be thought of as a slow backpedalling, where the transfer to the upper LTE signals the start of the backwards downstroke. Pressure on this new outside ski increases through the turn, until you transfer weight to the other leg....

Does that sort of make sense? The double push skating analogy triggered this from muscle memory....
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Postby RobertC » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:44 pm

I don't get any float with the super phantom.
Is that correct?
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Float - might make a good thread topic

Postby John Mason » Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:50 am

Float, that almost and sometimes weightless transition in a turn. If that's how you define float, both the SP and the WR can give you float. The two footed really can't because it's not energetic enough in the transitions.

If the SP, LTE part is done late, I could see how that would be after the float and thus destroy any float, but it's not.

I have two pairs of skis. The one pair have so much rebound I have found myself in the air at transition (which is quite fun in fact). Not sure what kind of release I'm doing then. (A no footed release?) My other pair of skis don't have nearly the rebound and I'm just partially unweighted right at transition, certainly unweighted compared to the bottom of the turn.

I was doing GS type turns at Copper and the hill photographer got me two times on two runs airborne right at transition. It looks like a "hover" turn. An airborne phantom still positions you correctly for landing off a "super float".

In Eric and Rob D.'s Ski the Whole Mountain book, they have a great picture sequence of the SP with a drill to get the move down. (I think it's the best picture sequence out there for this move actually) It's the basis of their whole book as far as a movement pattern, yet they look at it as an all mountain move. They also describe float associated with this move. The whole idea of float, if I understand it correctly, is if you are timing your turns to keep the CM moving down the hill you will float at the transition, especially in high-speed energetic turns. SP or WR would both do this in my opinion.

Anyone else hover in turns?
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Postby tommy » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:11 am

I don't get any float with the super phantom.
Is that correct?


I'm also struggling with understanding the concept of "float" as Harald defines it, in conjunction with the SuperPhantom.

If I'm not mistaken, in video 2 Harald defines the float as "bringing both skis flat to the snow at the same time".

With that definition, I can't see how one could possibly accomplish a float when using SP, which as far as I understand it, basically starts with both skis going towards their little toe edges - the uphill ski should already be on LTE when finishing the previous turn, and the downhill ski is tipped towards its LTE. So, at the time when the uphill ski goes flat, the downhill ski is already tipped towards its LTE.

Any ideas ?

Cheers,
Tommy
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