Super-phantom ?

PMTS Forum

Postby RobertC » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:47 am

I see float as a short pause, almost imperceptible, where you collect yourself to refine the turn. Skis flat.
My lower ski is tipping by the time the top ski gets flat. And my weight has started on its way across.
Maybe under reduced 'g', with the body dropping slightly. Not sure if this is 'unweighted' though.

I suppose it might be possible to float on one foot. (but beyond me!) Any comments?

This is a technical subject - it's apparent that the terminology is causing us problems in the discussions on this forum.

I have not seen the Instructor Manual. Is it useful?

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Postby milesb » Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:13 am

Interesting, I always thought that the float was an EXERCISE to slow down the transition between turns, as many lower level skiers really rush the start. A version called "patience turns" (or something like that) has been used by instructors for decades, but I've never seen it really explained except in Harb's media. In any event, the goal is to not need the float. If you set up the end of the turn correctly, you will be perfectly balanced for the next turn, and will not need any adjustments. Real world skiing, though, everybody floats...sometimes. Sometimes because it's necessary, and sometimes because it's fun.
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Postby RobertC » Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:55 am

Miles - I agree. Maybe it's not necessary if the turns are perfect!
Perhaps I rush turn initiation - certainly I turn more tidily if I include a float.
But is there a float in a super phantom? I think we should be told.
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Float - some more thoughts

Postby John Mason » Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:51 am

The instructor manual is quite good. Often duplicating material in the other 2 books (three books if you include the excersize book). The instructor manual goes more into the reasons for the excersizes and what they are trying to accomplish. For a head first guy like me rather than monkey see monkey do learner, I found it quite helpful.

I look at float as the natural result in a turn of letting gravity and prior turn energy work for you. You don't push off to get to the next turn in PMTS or in Lito's soft release, but your letting everything in your skiing efficiently create the next turn through passive (collapse/flex) stance leg action plus this tipping of the former stance leg. This will move you, depending on how much tipping and how much flexing, pretty dramatically into the next turn. In the process of doing this action you will experience, at the momemt the body moves over your skis but before the turn has actually developed and changed direction a "float". Depending on the arc and energy of the turn this can be very brief or simply a weightless sensation or it can be a little longer.

This is my experience with it anyway. I'll be interested to read HH's comments on this too.

If, however, you are using a wider stance, then you can't use passive forces to enter the next turn, but must push off to get the next turn going. If this is the way you transition between turns, there would be no float. I think this stance issue is why some things people read in threads here, do not translate to self teaching on the slopes. PMTS doesn't work with a the type of wide stance that seems to be in vogue these days.

Nice discussion (and HH's back, how'd the racing go?)
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In the sp float is after the little toe edge is put down

Postby John Mason » Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:58 am

The little toe edge is put down right at the end of the last turn as the stance leg is flexed. The float feeling is immediately after that as the body comes over the skis. So you can have both effects (weight on the LTE in the SP and float as the body comes over the skis)

Lots of people read the SP and are late in the turn in their thinking of when the LTE is put down. Some of this comes from the traverse excersize where this happens as part of the drill. When linking turns the SP is a method of release and both the flex/tip of the stance leg (which means your weight will be on the other foot) and the LTE taking the weight as this occurs happens at the same time. You can go to the LTE earlier in the turn if you want since either edge (big toe on stance foot) or LTE on free foot can be engagaged or be the only ski supporting you.

(ultimately you need to be able to ski on all edges at any time)
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Postby Jeff Markham » Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:14 am

I agree with John about the Instructor Manual. Someone recommended to me that I not purchase it on the basis of its material already being covered in ACBAES 1 & 2. However, it has additional technical material, information about the instruction philosophy/methodology, and restates in a different (and illuminating) way some of the ACBAES-covered topics. Of course, I really bought it because I've becomed obsessed about learning PMTS. :shock: :wink:

With respect to the instruction methodology, I find that it helps me to understand the instructor's approach. In other words, it improves my interaction with the instructor when I more fully understand their reasoning. Hopefully, that result in a better lesson for me.
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Postby RobertC » Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:36 am

Ok, so now I have to get the instructor manual, as well as the book John recommended earlier. Thanks.
Having started along the PMTS line, books are my only instructors. It's worked out well so far for me. Also, I have learnt a lot from this forum. It's very valuable and I do appreciate it.

But it would be nice if we had some PMTS friendly instructors on this side of the pond. Maybe there are??????
Any closet PMTS instructors in europe?
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Postby jclayton » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:41 pm

The Float , my favorite subject ,

HH described it as the moment of stop before the new turn is started where you gather yourself , balance ( dynamically ) and are prepared for the new turn . IN my view it can exist in any turn to a greater or lesser degree even one foot turns . If it doesn't exist here you are twisting , or steering to turn which you will immediatly feel in the knee , i.e. it should be an integral part of any turn . Even the weighted release has a float however brief .

This is of course my personal view , but it works for me ( so far )
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Here is the list - you'll see some in England

Postby John Mason » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:29 am

Here is the list - you'll see some with England summer addresses, but they may be able to hook you up
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