Carving in the Steeps

PMTS Forum

Postby dewdman42 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:22 am

The best book I have ever seen about the physics of skiing is LeMasters's "The Skiers Edge". It changed my life actually.
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Postby Harald » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:14 pm

Dewd, Yes Ron made a great attempt, but many of his theories and explanations are not what are actually happening and aren't what the skiers are actually intending to so. He is assessing what he is seeing in photos, not what the intent of the skier is or was. So some of his theories are actually misleading. If I had the book here I could refer you to the pages I'm talking about.

As with the PSIA gang when they use Bode pictures to support their need for explaining why they teach skidding and pivot slips. Bode is not doing what they are saying he is doing. I know first hand that Bode doesn?t think of twisting or pivoting his skis. He releases and counters using momentum from the release. This takes his skis and moves his body , he adjusts his ski angles with inclination and foot tipping. This is all happening at forty miles and hour, how does this relate to rotation that the PSIA would like regular skiers to use? It doesn?t, forces and dynamics are totally different just a they are for a wide stance at forty miles an hour and the impact a wide stance has on a skier going fifteen miles and hour. Baffling that they don?t understand the differences in dynamics.
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Postby dewdman42 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:28 pm

Harald, yes PLEASE.. this would be a very good thread to have. I certainly don't think anyone has all the perfect answers...including Ron LeMaster, but so far..that's the only book I personally have ever read that at least attempted to explain the physics. It really did change my life. its not the holy bible of skiing. Nothing is. But its just one more source of information to add to the collective. I'm particular impressed with his explanations of ski physics more so than his theories about ski technique.

If there are what you consider to be errata or wrong interpretations...by all means...PLEASE SHARE...for the sake of furthering my/our understanding...

And by the way, I also realize already there are a few places in there where he goes beyong explaining physics and tries to teach skiing. I vaguely recall reading a couple things where I thought I didn't particularly agree with his proposed solution for how to ski. But...there were some things about the physics that nobody had ever explained to me before and it cleared up a lot of wonderment on my part. It changed my life. By the way...all the stuff I'm talking about.....the explanation about physics......seemed to support PMTS completely when I read it.

But please, this would be a great discussion to have. Also, if you know of other books that explain the physics, let us know because I will definitely go get them and read them too.
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Postby Harald » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:03 pm

The absolute best person to explain the physics is my partner Diana Rogers. Not only is she a Stanford grad, undergrad at CU, (full scholarship to Stanford) masters in Aerospace engineering, but she can ski it. She can bring it. No PSIA Demo Team member except possibly Debbie Armstrong can ski at her level. Sorry, Ron may be a nice guy, but he can't ski, that's why he gets confused. You have to have some experience at the level you are talking about or the physics takes over and the practical gets muddled.

Diana at 40 years old, last season skied to a 70 point result in a junior USSA race. She started racing after we formed our company, and we skied together for about eight years, after that. So she has only been racing for a few years starting at thirty five. She is able to train only a few days a season. I coach her when I can but it?s usually two days a season, the rest she does on her own with some reminders, here and there. Yet still improves every year. If she trained with the juniors full time, she would have forty points or better skiing in Nor Am races. She wins all the Masters races, and has beat all the men, many are former FIS and Nor Am racers. She was trained in the PMTS method.
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Postby dewdman42 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:13 pm

Tell her to write a book and I will certainly buy it!!! It could become a cult classic.

noted, about LeMaster's own skiing ability.

Its interesting what you say about Deb Armstrong. I have never seen her ski, but she writes articles for the PSIA magazine I just got in the mail. My PSIA region is having a workshop next weekend and she will be presenting some stuff too (classroom, not on snow). I'll make sure to listen up if I go. I vaguely recall reading some stuff from her about rotation though.
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Postby Harald » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:24 pm

Image

Notice here I am wide just before transition, not intended, but consequence. That's where they don't make a distinction.
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Postby dewdman42 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:55 pm

Right. That's what I was wondering. So essentially you're saying that when we see WC guys with the wide stance at transition...that is not intentional...its circumstantial...perhaps less than ideal...and not even worth thinking about much more.
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Postby François » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:56 pm

Harald wrote:A typical PSIA student even instructors, at level six or seven still have remnants of a wedge in their turns, they have probably skied three to five years, for some its twenty years, averaging about fifteen to twenty times a year. At least that's what we encounter with folks that come to PMTS, Harb Ski Systems camps.

With PMTS, beginner skiers are skiing level 4 or 5 by the second day. The third day they are parallel on blue terrain. This is from a survey done by Ski Area Management Magazine at Sol Vista three years ago.

Customer satisfaction from prior lessons, in this case PSIA lessons, to PMTS lessons, went up three fold.


20 years :shock: of doing wedges is preposterous. No wonder they develop a hard habit to break. The PMTS timing of three days to parallel turns on blue seems much more reasonable to me.

As I recall, snow plow and stem turn was a very temporary thing, just to get me on the hill where I could build speed up to allow the skis to bend and turn properly (on edge) without fear of not being able to follow the trail. I must of lucked out 'cause I'm pretty sure the book made it very clear that the stem was just a bit of security to get me to feel what the parallel turn should feel like after I had my skis parallel for the end of the turn. The stem was quickly forgotten as soon as I leaned over at speed and confirmed it was not needed at all. It was not a skiing "method" to last for days and days. Now all those posts about dead-end moves make a lot more sense.

Skidding and pivoting are good skills to have in your kitbag, but they shouldn't be your main method of turning. That would be like everybody doing power slides around every corner in their car. Though racers can adjust their attitude with over/under steer, and can abruptly change to a new line, it's hardly a turning technique.

The more I read about PMTS, the more I like it.
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Postby NoCleverName » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:33 pm

The Wedge is a most insidous thing, maybe even a crime :) .

I learned to ski in my mid-thirties, and to this day little wedgie-gremlins still intrude. The first thing you learn is hard to de-program.

I also remember the confusion of trying to reverse the weight shifts from what's required with the wedge to what's required of parallel. I also remember that once you exceeded the wedge's control capabilities, boy were you in trouble. I think it was my first real run at the Attitash bunny slope ... ran thru the flats to the parking lot and hit a car. A cream-colored Caddie, I remember that hood ornament. Sure was in that wedge position though :lol: .

You gota' figure wedge is not exactly a selling point to adult beginners. They know they look like losers when in a wedge. They feel like losers. No wonder they don't come back.

So they can take that wedge, shove it, steer it, and rotate it up their ... :twisted:
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Postby Ken » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:47 pm

PMTS is the most versatile open to movement teaching system in the world

YES!

I've learned to use the same movements in every type of snow. It works. Fine tuning is needed for different conditions and other different situations, but the main movements are exactly the same. Well...the same if I hit them right :lol:

I skied into some good looking crud on a steep slope under a chairlift one day last year. The crud was frozen and horrible. I skied it with no trouble because I was able to hit my PMTS movements almost as well as I'd hoped to.


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Postby Harald » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:03 pm

Image

This is still very steep slalom hill at Hintertux. Notice difference in narrowing of stance in transition compared to the Mt Hood one above, due to keeping ski on edge while going through the flexing of the leg for a release.
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Postby Harald » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:13 pm

Without sleeping on it, my initial response is that the delay in reaction of product (the ski ) to body movement, in transition is exactly what we need to survive. When I begin releasing by flexing it doesn?t mean my skis stop arcing or stop completing the turn. (this is learned not natural) They may even stay carving uphill, while I release, we call that the figure 8 turn. This causes a delayed edge change, but holds me upright while my body transitions. The ski arcing can still be happening while, my body is beginning to move across the skis toward the falline or some diagonal to the falline.

When the skis do release it?s very energetic and quick, bringing them immediately into a carving for the new turn.

The opposite would be a weighted release, where the body moves immediately with the stance leg bending and ski tipping.

Which, is opposite of the phantom move. Where the stance ski is lifted and transfer is made to the old inside ski.

The Weighted Release can be a dangerous move at high speed on steep slopes. Because your skis can?t keep up and you have no way to accelerate them or create friction with them to slow the body relative to the skis. (the skis are not in a position to be engaged, you are suspended, actually disconnected)

In the figure 8 release, when the body gets across and below the skis, it means the skis are already engaged. Depending on snow, as friction forces on the skis in, during and at the beginning, from release, to transition, to early engagement, will change all relationships. The ability to stay upright has something to do with the hip flexor extension, which pushes the skis forward, so the skis can stay up with the body? s head start moving down.

The steeper it gets, there is more need for either velocity, ski side cut or ski contact (friction) with forward ski push (on edge in a slicing manner). You can explain this with vector diagrams, but I prefer to keep it practical, so it can be translated into movement. Static vector diagrams are different and change with every variance of relationship to the arc. It?s much more relevant to rely on Advanced Dynamics in the form of momentum and change of momentum, when relating these principles, then it is to work with static force vector diagrams. My understanding of Physics is enough to get me in trouble and it is basic, but practical, when I get into trouble, I ask Diana. She?s not here right now, so all this could be a warm wind blowing from the southern California desert. But regardless interesting!
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Postby Harald » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:17 pm

Notice my avatar, how my hip on the stance side is open or unflexed. That is from hip extension, which with leg extension puts the body in alignment to increase and deal with building forces. Would you like an order of leg steering with those angles sir? How about some inclination?
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Postby milesb » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:04 pm

I imagine it would be extremely difficult to keep the skis from pivoting during that figure 8 release you describe.
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Postby dewdman42 » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:24 pm

It will take me a while to understand all that.
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