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Postby Guest » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:35 am

Hi!
I'm going to try it here, because I'm becoming dissappointed with Epicski's technique forum. I'm somewhat familiar with Mr Harb's media teaching, having read his magazine articles, website, and the Expert2 book and video. I can't say that I've fully applied everything, as I often get lazy about practicing.
SCSA is my pal.
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Postby Guest » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:39 am

that was me, milesb. I didn't know how to get my user name to appear. Pretty lame, huh!
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ok, got it.

Postby milesb » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:41 am

ok, got it.
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Postby Mac B. » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:16 am

Milesb, I agree with you about Epic. Without trying to offend anyone over there, I think that's primarily whats wrong with PSIA, too much red tape and too many different opinions that just tend to muddy the waters. PMTS is simple, easy to follow, and it works. Most of PMTS is based on sound physical principles and good old fashion common sense, something that seemed to be in short supply when I was trying to learn how to ski. I didn't start skiing till later in life, and I was wondering if I was going to live long enough to be any good at it. If it wasn't for PMTS, I'd still be on the bunny slope.
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Hiya milesb...

Postby snokarver » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:33 pm

Yea, interesting observation... :wink:
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Postby Guest » Sat May 22, 2004 3:48 pm

milesb

You're right, this forum is much better than Epic. In fact, Epic was becoming a pain trying to keep up with everything going on there. If you didn't check in every couple hours, you had to set around and read new posts forever. Here it's easy, check in twice a week for about 30 seconds and read both posts submited since your last visit. What could be easier!!
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Postby milesb » Sun May 23, 2004 12:30 pm

guest, thank you for the sarcasm. But actually, you have hit on something important. Lately, there is alot for a non-instructor to have to wade through at epic to find something useful. It really has become an instructor shop talk lounge, and that's OK. It's just not very interesting for me anymore.
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Postby Visitor » Mon May 24, 2004 8:07 am

I have no axes to grind either way, but Epic is too much! Milesb, you are right on, ?Guest? is proving your point exactly. He comes to the PMTS forum to find out what the latest good ideas are in skiing then goes back to Epic to sound smart. Typical behavior for someone who is lost in his own understanding, I can?t even visit that instructor forum anymore. It is Epic, in its confusion, misunderstanding and fantasy.
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Postby milesb » Mon May 24, 2004 8:30 am

Well, I wouldn't go that far.
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Postby Guest » Tue May 25, 2004 8:03 am

Hey visitor,

You sound bitter. I don't know the source of your problem, but professional help is out there if you decide to address the issue. As to visiting this site, I do so for the same reason I visit other sites. To learn as much as possible about the sport. Gaining knowledge is much more important than sounding like you have it.

My point regarding this forum is that IMO it's under used from an instructional standpoint. I wish other PMTS instructors would get on board and join the instructional discussions here. As for Epic, I think that's what seperates it from the other forums. As to it being confusing, it can be at times and I think that's the price of having many instructors post there. But anytime I've needed clarity on a point, I've just ask and it's been cleared up. That doesn't mean that I always agree, but at least I understand the posters point in the end.
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Postby Visitor » Tue May 25, 2004 12:47 pm

Hey Guest, you sound brain-washed but,
thanks for the concern, I didn?t know that being discerning and contemptuous of misinformation, dribble and double speak required help, but maybe you could share your advice with some of those boring, repetitive posters on Epic.
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Postby Visitor » Tue May 25, 2004 1:26 pm

Ok Guest, let?s cut the smart talk, you are starting to sound like a decent type. My experience in skiing has come and gone full circle. I felt like I was running around in circles from the lessons and advice I received from PSIA instruction. Taking advice over the years from PSIA ski instructors, some the very posters that are most vociferous on Epic, has delayed and frustrated my skiing progress. The advice not only about equipment, but technique, sent me in the wrong direction. I was always a good athlete, but skiing wasn?t working for me, until I found PMTS and Harb?s alignment system.

I already know your answer to this, I?ve seen it on Epic dozens of times, especially whenever someone who had the same experience as I have tried to express it, ?you may have had a poor instructor, there are many good ones.? well that answer just doesn?t stand up. It isn?t just the instructor, it?s the system and the way the instructors are trained, I tested many more than I want to admit. I have a completely different experience with the PMTS system. First it makes sense; I can use the information when I?m out skiing on my own. I know what the movements are and I know where they are taking me. When I received PSIA instruction, the movements didn?t make any sense. For example, rise at the end of the turn, now push your body into the next turn. This is very common fair in the PSIA approach. I was always losing my balance and skidding my skis. PMTS make this part of the turn so much simpler, relax and tip both skis to their new edges. Lift or make the inside ski for the turn light and tip it, to bring the body to an angle for the next turn. Now I?m not a ski instructor or a ski technician, but the difference between those two approaches is like day and night. I think PSIA instructors could save themselves a lot of frustration and gain much more success by adopting most of what PMTS has to offer. Maybe they already are copying PMTS, I can't say as I don't use their instructors any longer.
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Postby Guest » Wed May 26, 2004 5:05 am

Visitor

I don't recall my prior posts advocating or supporting any method of instruction. I'm not an instructor or a ski related professional so my bias is towards people enjoying good skiing, regardless of the source of instruction. I am sincerely sorry that you had poor experiences with the PSIA instructors and think that it's great that PMTS has increased your skill and enjoyment for the sport. I will say that I've had some great PSIA instructors who have helped my skiing progress quickly. I'm not saying that these instructors would have worked for you since everybody's a little different or that they couldn't be improved upon. But they did vastly increase my skill level and enjoyment for the sport. That's what it's all about IMO. Overall, it seems pretty silly to contend that any system or approach is the one and only way to achieve good skiing.
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Postby Visitor » Wed May 26, 2004 12:00 pm

Here is the problem with signing in as ?Guest?. There is another poster who signs in as ?Guest? and continually tires to provoke the skiers who believe in PMTS and how the system works. You responded to Milesb, with a sarcastic comment, this put you in with the same dis-spirit displayed by the other ?Guest?. It might be helpful for everyone to use names other than ?Guest? so they can be identified differently from those who have established themselves as adversarial.

About the type of in instruction you have received, have you ever taken a PMTS lesson? Our opinions are relative to our experiences. Mine are formed by direct comparisons from numerous lessons from both systems.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Thu May 27, 2004 9:24 am

>>>Here is the problem with signing in as ?Guest?. There is another poster who signs in as ?Guest? and continually tires to provoke the skiers who believe in PMTS and how the system works.<<<

What exactly is the difference in signing in as 'Guest' compared to signing in as 'Visitor' with a 'Guest' as subtitle?

When I tried to look up either of your PROFILES, they are missing, so I really don't know who I'm dealing with.

What I'm seeing in this thread is old hat to me. In my 60 years of skiing and much of that as an instructor, I saw the same infighting among skiers about the 'systems' I taught.

I came in with the old Austrian technique, the revolutionary up-unweighting, comma postiton (angulations), very narrow stance and counter rotationas a turning force while unweighted. It worked great with the 210 cm stiff skis.

Along came the French technique with down-unweighting and swiveling of the skis and rising at the end of the turn (so one could down-unweight at the begining of the next turn) all that because Rossignol and Head came out with new technology of being able to make the shovel of the skis softer while still keeping torsional stiffness.

The fights were the same as now and here, the skiers who didn't have the skis with the new technology couldn't take advantage of the French way which actually involved only half of the movements of the Austrian technique because the shovels of the stiff skis would chatter out when engaged, and since down-unweighting affords only half the time to change edges, lead and weight, it took greater skill to execute. That being cited as detrimental to teaching beginners.

In the US various techniques were taught, depending wherefrom the ski school director hailed. The trouble with European techniques was that they were based on students that were athletic kids and teenagers, typically the time that Europeans learned to ski, some exceptions were young adults.

Along came PSIA and the great fight with USSA which didn't want to relinquish authority over ski instruction, the United States Ski Association felt they were the ones who knew best, being the authority over the Olympic teams, etc.

What PSIA did early on was to recognize that it wasn't only the athletic kids that needed instruction (they get it usually in racing programs ) but Mrs. Smith from Birmingham who is middle aged and a little overweight and hasn't done anything physical much in her life but who wants to partake of the glamour of skiing. She needed a whole new skiing progression. PSIA recognized that most adult beginners were very timid, mostly uncoordianted and not very daring when asked to do the unnatural movements required in skiing.

The result was "The Ten Final Forms", a non-ambiguos progression, teaching ACHIEVABLE skills in short one to one-and-a-half hour lessons BY THE AVERAGE AMERICAN STUDENT. The final forms were achived through many excercises designed to overcome the awkwardness of the stiff 210cm skis with ill fitting rental boots on icy beginner hills with rope tows. It was a one size fits all kind of teaching, much as PMTS is now and worked because student were not promoted to the next Final Form until they had the previous one down, a very slow progress.

PSIA, as all teaching systems, have grown, PSIA opened up from tight control to goal achievement to skill progression, realizing that fat short people and tall lanky ones, and timid ones and courageous ones should not be taught the same way and it was up to the individual instructor to fimd out and taylor the lesson accordingly and so came about guest centered' way of instructing.

PMTS is a great way to learn to ski for skiers who ski quite often, who own the new shaped skis and boots, but it is not all inclusive for people who show up in their uncles twenty year old boots and skis or even the average rental equipment. Ski area cannot deny a guest who bought a lesson no matter what he shows up with, so consequently the instructor has to taylor the guest centered lesson to the guest. I am not familiar enough with how that is handled in the PMTS ski schools.

So these fight will go on every time a new way of teaching evolves, promted by new developments in equipment and approaches.

....Ott
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