Re: tfr - restarting

[carver_hk]

As soon as the skis hit the fall line begin to CA. Make sure to include the pelvis as part of the CA movement.

Thanks Max. I can see it now. And to my memory I really have too little and too late CA in turn initiation( after neutral).

[Max_501]

As soon as the skis hit the fall line begin to CA. Make sure to include the pelvis as part of the CA movement.

Thanks Max. I can see it now. And to my memory I really have too little and too late CA in turn initiation( after neutral).

If you have the Expert Skier 2 DVD there are some really nice examples after the TFR demonstration. You can really see how much CA is used in the very fast and high performance BPST HH does when he is wearing the blue outfit.

[carver_hk]

checked the DVD. Thanks for the pointer.

[arothafel]

I've been following the last part of this thread re: CA or no CA at the beginning of the drill. Today, I tried both. There's no question in my mind that it's a lot easier to start this drill while being in a CA position. It just seems to allow me to release the stance ski more easily. I found this to be true on both sides. And, I just seemed to automatically finish the release in the opposite CA position.

I don't know if this is helpful or not... since I have no video and am not 100% sure I'm even doing the drill correctly.

Here's HH doing it. I was trying to copy his form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaFLiCw2z7w

[BigE]

I dont; see any CA. Am I blind?

[carver_hk]

I dont; see any CA. Am I blind?

I though the latest vid have some visible CA. It seems I better explore some exaggeration until I really get it?

arothafel - I m also copying the same form.

[BigE]

I was talking about HH.

[arothafel]

...perhaps I need clarification. What I think I'm seeing in HH's TFR video is this:

The starting position looks to me like a CA position from the previous turn (even though there wasn't a turn) and the ending position looks to me like he's in a CA position from the turn he just made.

Maybe I'm just all screwed up on the terminology.

When I initially tried TFR drills, my head, arms, hips, skis were facing across the hill.... and it was difficult to release/flatten the stance ski. However, when I tried HH's start position (what I thought was more of a CA position) everything seemed to fall into place --or at least it was easier than what I was doing.

I would appreciate some clarification on HH's start and finish position since the more I get into PMTS the more the terminology is important.

Meanwhile, I'll go hit the books - again!

[ToddW]

Art,

You're correct. Think back to our 2008 camp with Harald. When we did 2fr drills, a major focus of Harald's was having us end with strong ca, cb, and a pole prepped for a tap/plant. (btw, the new pmts pole plant ensures all 3.) The next 2fr begins from that same position with the same ca and cb. He explained that zero ca occurs when the skis are flat; at all other times there is some ca and its magnitude scales with the degree of tipping. He explained this several times because we were all asking the same question but needed to hear it in our own language and with reference to our own turns. This seems to be a common source of confusion.

I'm glad to hear you've still got snow to enjoy out west.

[arothafel]

Thanks Todd,

That helps.

I free-skied with a bunch of racers this week between their gate training runs. Man, the terminology is way different and it seems like they've created some new ones. I'm hearing terms like "inclination," "up-release," "wiggle turns" and a host of others -- none of which I understand or want to learn. So, you can see my concern about terminology over what I'm seeing in video, books, etc., especially as I post video and request MA.... I want to make sure I'm understanding what's being conveyed.

Yup... Mammoth still going til June 14th!! Most skiers don't believe a California resort could have such a long season. It's a great little secret. Come West young man!

http://www.discovermammoth.com/


Thanks again.

[h.harb]

From Austria: Great skiing week here, best snow in 20 years.

Art, you are right, there is strong CAing in my demo. Understanding the essence of CA movements and the results, necessity or relevance in advanced skiing is critical to being an effective coach. Why do you think so many instructors and coaches are so confused about the difference between CA, CB, inclination, Square, hip steering, etc. I could go on forever?. Because they don't see or understand the dynamics, they don't have the training.

[BigE]

Harald,

I always thought of CA and counteracting rotation. Therefore, I thought about it as something that is done during the transition between turns -- as the skis are edged, counter-action begins. Now, this can occur in two different ways -- the skier can allow the counteraction to occur by allowing the skis to turn independently of the upper body and not following/staying square, or the skier can actively force counteraction.

In your demo, to me, it appears that you've allowed the counteraction; it does not look forced. But you say that it's strong CA, which sounds active to me...

In the demo, were you actively counteracting or allowing counteraction to occur?

Thank you.

[Max_501]

I've been working on CA for the last few weeks. For me its much easier to CA on the left side. I guess this is due to a difference in flexibility. It is an active movement and I have to apply more effort to get the right side to match the left side. I've also discovered that the tighter the turn the more effort it takes me to get the proper amount of CA.

[h.harb]

I'm still in Europe, Zillertal, doing some filming for my new DVD and rock climbing. Google "Zillertal rock climbing", awesome.

Harald,

I always thought of CA and counteracting rotation. Therefore, I thought about it as something that is done during the transition between turns -- as the skis are edged, counter-action begins. Now, this can occur in two different ways -- the skier can allow the counteraction to occur by allowing the skis to turn independently of the upper body and not following/staying square, or the skier can actively force counteraction.

In your demo, to me, it appears that you've allowed the counteraction; it does not look forced. But you say that it's strong CA, which sounds active to me...

In the demo, were you actively counteracting or allowing counteraction to occur?

Bige thanks for bringing this up. We need to dig into this topic and really expose the issues.

I'd like point out and make distinctions about CA that many skiers have yet to be introduced to, one is that PMTS CA, is not C rotation or "skiing into counter". Let's take C rotation first, this is a much maligned movement that can kick the skis to the side before the falline. PSIA started using this term to describe a movement they taught back in the sixties, after a period of time they realized that it was a movement that caused a tail skid. This was just about the time when Warren Witherall criticized ski instructors as skiing like posers because they skidded turns, where racers carved their turns. (The 1970s version of carving, which to this day is still much more difficult to achieve than modern day carving)

So PSIA, in their infinite wisdom started telling everyone that C rotation was bad and that skiing square was in. Counter rotation, if used correctly, is not bad, it's in fact fantastic and very strong, but only if you begin and know how to tip the skis onto an edge first. Then CR can be hugely effective at high speed, powerful, quick, retraction, flexing, type transitions. Racers have to use this all the time. It just turns out ski instructors couldn't figure out that if you CR first, without tipping, it produces a skid. So they got rid of the (their) problem by avoiding the whole issue, by changing their approach and telling all their instructors to ski square and teach square. PSIA is "filled with holes" like this example, in their system. That's why PSIA minded instructors who write a lot like BB, have to write 100s of pages to justify what they teach, without coming up with any logical useable methods. It's a "looks good on paper instructional system", not a practical applicable system that achieves expert skiers (in my opinion of course).

Skiing square is just not possible, because you end up rotating. THE BODY IS NOT MADE TO DEAL WITH THE ROTATIONAL FORCES OF A SKI, "ARCING", WITH A SQUARE HIP. THE HIP IS IN A PRECARIOUS POSITION AND HAS NO CONTROLLING MUSCLES when IT IS HELD SQUARE. Skiing square requires a rotation beginning, ever so slight, if done perfectly, so square is really skiing with rotation. I know few skiers who can ski square except for in a contrived demo formate.

Amazingly enough, they have yet to figure this out. They don't get tipping, they don't teach it, (they may talk about it and possibly have introduced the word, but they don't know how it fits.) so they try to avoid their problems by skiing square. As a result they have very low performance turns. They all go slow and they all look the same, like golf carts. quote WW.

Skiing into counter is also a joke. WC racers can do it, few others can. Another thing that instructors and coaches don't realize is that if you don't know how to CA well, you will never learn how to ski into a counter. Skiing into to a counter requires a much high degree of Counter Acting understanding.

Do you think skiers rotate on purpose? No, they rotate because they don't know how to CA. PMTS CA is CR without the tail push, so it can be a very subtle or very strong movement depending on the range of the dynamics.

So back to the original question, do I use active countering (hips) in all TFRs? Yes, without question, just because it looks easy and I disguise it to look controlled and subtle, it's there and it's powerful.

CA is misrepresented, misunderstood and underutilized in both teaching and coaching. Few Coaches see what's good about it and they don't see or know what to do for a racer when it's not used. Who in all the literature about skiing describes CA properly? No one.

[h.harb]

More on this topic later, as pivot slips and brushed carves are two totally different movements patterns that need explanation. I'll explain how and why pivot slips will never get you to carving or proper BPSTs.