What a weak Act!! Epic Censoring PMTS Supporters

PMTS Forum

Postby Flexon Phil » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:54 pm

h.harb wrote:Gee flexion-phil really worked up. I?m very impressed with your concern for my motivations, to bad you don?t know anything about them, assumption phil that?s what you have. I have proof--. 1And I?m the first consumer advocate for ski instruction, warning skiers of what they?ll get with the monopoly system, compared to a well thought out, effective, efficient teaching system, that has the best trained and most knowledgeable ski coaches and instructors in the world. 2Flexon, you have a choice, there are plenty of PSIA guys that will meet your motivation, just getting down the (Him) hill without falling.

3Thanks for taking up space on the forum, I support your right to be wrong, whoever you are, hiding under your fake posting name.4 If you were really an honest well meaning person, obviously not, you would come through like the membership on this forum, who know each other, why not call me or e-mail me directly like a real person?. 5What you show is a coward?s heart. Your attempts here are meaningless, obviously another want to be internet noise.

It could be many reasons, but, anyone who is looking to spend close to $1,000.00 for a week of ski instruction is a fairly affluent person, to get affluent, chances are they are intelligent. Most intelligent people will not invest in childish behavior.

This probably means we won't be seeing your intelligent, affluence at a camp soon, you won?t condescend to ski with those who invest in childish behavior.? It?s a good thing then Flexon that PMTS skiers are into great ski instruction and learning with an effective system and not really into following and calling out childish behavior like you. 6What's your message Flexon? Is it that skiers shouldn?t ski PMTS because, I blow the whistle on Epic garbage, what exactly are you trying to say here Flexon? See 3 & 5 Come out of hiding and possibly you would be taken seriously.


Could you put qualified people into areas that could run ski schools? You would have to release control and let other people teach. You teach someone, who teaches someone else that teaches someone else that teaches the student? When this happens every transition there is a loss of quality.

Could someone interpret what this is supposed to mean?

People just want to learn how to get down the him with minimal falling.
Flexon, incredibly astute observation. Makes me very confident, that your advice is worthy. Borat 2006: ?Not?

7Try the spell check Flexon, sorry, I forgot, you have to be close for the spell check to work. Maybe you are just affluent.


1. First a consumer advocate, with a whopping 93 members here, you are doing a fine job. I think your pride is getting in the way of your checkbook.

2. Please reread my post, I said the majority of skiers out there are happy just getting down the slopes without falling. There is the select few who want to maximize their experience through lessons.

3. Coward hiding under a name? how many aliases did you use on Epic, patting yourself on the back as another user?. Hmmm, Dewdman, max501, yep, they are forthright. (Sorry guys, no offense against you, I am just using your handles as an example) My name in Phil Pugliese, I used Phil Pugliese as a handle for many of years, just changing it to either Philpug or Flexon Phil depending on the site I frequent. But, google Flexon Phil, I am sure my clever alias would be revealed.

4. I am forthright, what of what I said was not?

5. Where am I being a coward? I came into the lions den to talk about this, and its not the first time. Be man enough to reply to the letter you received.

6. Where did I ever say that. I have said, people should find the system best for them.

7. Gee, wow, you got me on that one. :roll:

It really is disappointing (but surprising not surprising) that you was treating a person who is trying to help the situation. Counter to what you think, I have no agenda here. I will PM you my cell number if you want to talk more about it. I have nothing to hide.[size=9]
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Last edited by Flexon Phil on Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:02 pm

Wow, big print to, we are finally getting somewhere. Does that mean you are shouting louder?
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Postby h.harb » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm

I don?t understand Phil, are you an investor or stock holder. We are a privately held company. You are very concerned with HSS growth. Is this your way of saying PMTS is not successful. Great it?s not successful to you, big deal. You never once asked if my customers or I were not satisfied with our growth. Assumptions continue to show the value of your posts. You have no understanding of our business, the quality of our product or our instruction and where it comes from, you want you opinion voiced. Sounds like an agenda to me.

Maybe we don?t want to be bigger. Maybe we are growing too fast for our own comfort. Maybe we are more interested in quality instructors and quality instruction then growth. What business is it of yours what my wallet looks like?

We are getting the exact type of people we want to ski with. We enjoy the skiers who come to our camps because they are great fun and enjoyable to be around. My job is not a job, it?s a great trip through life. I am doing exactly what I want to do. I ski, I climb, I ride, I fly fish, I write about what I love to do. I produce videos, I invent skiing movements and I ski with skiers I love to ski with and have fun.

Why grow bigger and ruin this whole thing, this is perfect. My coaches are of the same mind, they are passionate outdoor people. The are high quality individuals and teachers, and great fun to be around. They are respectful of the environment, outdoors, heath and fitness and the opportunity they have to mix skiing into their lives. Phil, you are missing the point and the spirit.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:30 pm

h.harb wrote:Wow, big print to, we are finally getting somewhere. Does that mean you are shouting louder?


I went in and double checked the font size, is is showing "normal", you got me on this one.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:37 pm

h.harb wrote:I don?t understand Phil, are you an investor or stock holder. We are a privately held company. You are very concerned with HSS growth. Is this your way of saying PMTS is not successful. Great it?s not successful to you, big deal. You never once asked if my customers or I were not satisfied with our growth. Assumptions continue to show the value of your posts. You have no understanding of our business, the quality of our product or our instruction and where it comes from, you want you opinion voiced. Sounds like an agenda to me.

Maybe we don?t want to be bigger. Maybe we are growing too fast for our own comfort. Maybe we are more interested in quality instructors and quality instruction then growth. What business is it of yours what my wallet looks like?

We are getting the exact type of people we want to ski with. We enjoy the skiers who come to our camps because they are great fun and enjoyable to be around. My job is not a job, it?s a great trip through life. I am doing exactly what I want to do. I ski, I climb, I ride, I fly fish, I write about what I love to do. I produce videos, I invent skiing movements and I ski with skiers I love to ski with and have fun.

Why grow bigger and ruin this whole thing, this is perfect. My coaches are of the same mind, they are passionate outdoor people. The are high quality individuals and teachers, and great fun to be around. They are respectful of the environment, outdoors, heath and fitness and the opportunity they have to mix skiing into their lives. Phil, you are missing the point and the spirit.


Quote frankly, this is one of the best posts I have read of yours, you are building up your product and not knocking another one [cough] PSIA [/cough] down. Good for you. If you are happy with the size that you are, and no where have I EVER posted that you have a bad or inferior product, just as you perceive my coming over here with an agenda. Be happy with your size and suggest to your guys to stay out of Epic with their agendas.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:02 pm

I'm soo glad my post suits you, you made my day.
Phil, you do have an agenda and a high horse and a sore spot, don't you. They are not my guys, they don't have an agenda and they are not participating differently on Epic then anyone else. Are you the PSIA police? The topic controller? What?s your deal? You speak with forked tongue.
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Postby Hobbit » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:02 pm

Phil,

Your interpretation on the post counters is vague -- you should study the subject instead of starting speculations. When I am not logged in the view counter increments. All the anonymous visitors page hits are countered.
I am certain that many registered users (including myself) are not keeping the login active. I do not like to leave my computer screen unattended so I log in only when I need to post.

More so, note some view counter and try clicking on some thread then go back and note the counter changed. Do it couple of times and you'll see that this software is counting page hits without setting a cookie on the local machine. So one person may up the view count pretty easy if they are browsing the forum.

My experience from the camps I've been through is that probably 90% to 95% of people do not post on the forum(s) at all. Probably 40 to 50% are the readers IMHO. You know, if the material presentation is clear enough and you are looking for the answer on the specific question you might just find it so you don't have to post at all. My understanding is that majority of epicski members are readers as well and I think that you reasoning is well off the mark.
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Postby Narrowfeet » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:37 pm

The sarcasm is dripping.

I don't think Phil is pro PSIA, he is pro Epic and pro buying lots of gear. I believe his advice is given in the spirit of peace making and of trying to stop the battles.

I would disagree with Phil on his opinion of negative selling. Academically, it may be verboten, however in the real world it is used every day, and is effective. Look at political campaigns, the sales contest of all sales contests. I think Mr. Harb needs to differentiate his product from the monopolists product, and speaking the truth works.

I think EPIC has every right to limit the discussions on their site, just as Mr. Harb has the same right. In Epic's case, it is contrary to their stated philosophy, but flip flops almost worked in the last election, so lets try it again. Lurkers and members have a right to vote with their mice.

Where I disagree with Epic is the accusation that Max is a plant. I find the personal attack on him to be in very bad taste.
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Postby milesb » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:58 pm

h.harb wrote:I don?t understand Phil, are you an investor or stock holder. We are a privately held company. You are very concerned with HSS growth. Is this your way of saying PMTS is not successful. Great it?s not successful to you, big deal. You never once asked if my customers or I were not satisfied with our growth. Assumptions continue to show the value of your posts. You have no understanding of our business, the quality of our product or our instruction and where it comes from, you want you opinion voiced. Sounds like an agenda to me.

Maybe we don?t want to be bigger. Maybe we are growing too fast for our own comfort. Maybe we are more interested in quality instructors and quality instruction then growth. What business is it of yours what my wallet looks like?

We are getting the exact type of people we want to ski with. We enjoy the skiers who come to our camps because they are great fun and enjoyable to be around. My job is not a job, it?s a great trip through life. I am doing exactly what I want to do. I ski, I climb, I ride, I fly fish, I write about what I love to do. I produce videos, I invent skiing movements and I ski with skiers I love to ski with and have fun.

Why grow bigger and ruin this whole thing, this is perfect. My coaches are of the same mind, they are passionate outdoor people. The are high quality individuals and teachers, and great fun to be around. They are respectful of the environment, outdoors, heath and fitness and the opportunity they have to mix skiing into their lives. Phil, you are missing the point and the spirit.


Harald, I don't know why so many don't get that. I have NEVER seen you post anything that indicates a desire for your business to become much bigger, except for selling more books. And that doesn't "cost" you anything, does it!
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Postby jclayton » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:59 pm

To be honest , I like the specific technical posts 100 times more than the critical ones ( of systems , that is )

I skied with Harald 3 years ago and he couldn't bear to see people skiing badly even watching form the lift . He had to almost follow them down to tell them where they went wrong . Sure this is aggravating for them , bursts a few egos ( if they listen )

Bottom line ...... I have benefitted like I WOULDN'T HAVE BELEIVED POSSIBLE from this fanatical attitude . This attitude has produced an
improving skier out of a terminal TTS , frustrated , out of balance , out of synch skier .

Who cares if he has a rant from time to time .

Another bottom line Flexon , get on the hill , head to head ( oops , marketing again ) with Harald and get in touch with the real deal .

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Postby dewdman42 » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:47 pm

Narrowfeet wrote:I would disagree with Phil on his opinion of negative selling. Academically, it may be verboten, however in the real world it is used every day, and is effective. Look at political campaigns, the sales contest of all sales contests. I think Mr. Harb needs to differentiate his product from the monopolists product, and speaking the truth works.

No kidding. I have friends that work at Microsoft. And I have friends that work at Apple. You should hear the slanderous stories on both sides. Apple is under NOOOO obligation whatsoever to say nice things about Microsoft, and vica versa. And in fact it does help them to spread as much bad news as possible about the competition. There is nothing unethical about that at all.

It does get a little bit fuzzier in the ski instructor arena that we are talking about now because there are many people out there that have to have one foot in each camp as part of the nature of the industry. Its difficult to do that if both sides are being polarized from each other. It does force many people to choose a side. Frankly I too think that limits market share for Harald, but as he has stated, it makes no difference to him. Its quality vs quantity.

I think EPIC has every right to limit the discussions on their site, just as Mr. Harb has the same right. In Epic's case, it is contrary to their stated philosophy,

yep they do. Thank goodness for me, they are at least trying to remain as neutral as possible. Personally I would not blame them if they changed their format to be more like a complete competitor to PMTS. Right now they do not view themselves as being a competitor. They view PMTS as being under the umbrella of "everything that is out there" and that is what they want to be open to. However, it does get hard on their egos to hear some of these complaints against them. If they decided to make Epic more of an anti-PMTS place, out in the open, then I wouldn't blame them one bit and it would be perfectly ethical. (But I probably wouldn't be wasting much time there after that). But at least for now they are not taking that position.

Where I disagree with Epic is the accusation that Max is a plant. I find the personal attack on him to be in very bad taste.


ditto

Listen I appreciate the plea from Phil. It would certainly make MY life a bit easier if we could all get along. And Phil I do actually applaud you for having the cajones to speak your mind and plea for it. But before you take it too far, really..there is nothing unethical going on here, its not even bad business per say. If you ever met Harald you'd realize that a great deal of his rants are fueled by sincere passion and concern about what is happening to the sport. IMHO the biggest issue is that there is a lot of ego to go around this industry..... its hard to hear the truth, and easy to speak it when you think you're right.
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Postby Flexon Phil » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:35 pm

I truly appreciate the support everyone. I want nothing but good to come from this, for both TM's.
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Postby Narrowfeet » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:07 am

PMTS cannot be mentioned on Epic anymore. Unbelievable.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=726912#post726912
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Postby Max_501 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:00 am

Narrowfeet wrote:PMTS cannot be mentioned on Epic anymore. Unbelievable.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=726912#post726912


I think this is a very disappointing turn of events. I have been an active part of the Epic community for a long time and hate to see it ban the discussion of any ski related topic.

There is an active discussion with further clarification (PMTS terminology has also be banned) here:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.ph ... post726968
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Postby jbotti » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:00 am

What is disgustly disingenuous explanation of why they are banning any mention of PMTS!!

It will have no effect on me because I don't post over there.

The lie, that they are agnostic and open to all discussion of skiing technique, is now completely exposed.

It's amazing what one video of an expert PMTS skier can do. Max 501's video started all of this.

But now the real question: what in the w orld will they talk and argue about?

70% of the posting over there involves some argument or commentary about PMTS.

Again, this is what losers do when they are beaten!!!
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