2 footed release - turning forces?

[h.harb]

To those who are confused about the TFR, this is not rocket science.

First set of movements: If both skis are flat on the snow at the same time, there is very little friction. If you stand on the center of the skis, (or slightly forward) as both skis come flat, the tips will go downhill. As the tips are headed straight downhill, apply little toe edge tipping(or before if you can).

Second set of movements:If you lean back, as you release, it won’t work, if you push or extend on either ski, it won’t work. If you release one ski before the other, it won't work. If you put the big toe edge in the snow, before the little toe tipping, it won’t work.

If it’s not working you are not doing the first set of movements and you have either one or more of the second set, in your program. As Tommi said, post video than you won’t have to guess and we won’t have to guess.

[hacker]

Thanks for your advice everyone.

I will try the tfr drills when we get some snow on this side of the world (New Zealand).

[Ken]

The force diagram of the skis turning when weight is properly distributed on them is in one of the articles in the Proceedings of the 1st International Congress on Science and Skiing, 1996. I don't have it at hand. Your local library might be able to get a copy for you to borrow via interlibrary loan. (Harald has presented papers at the 2nd ICSS...abstracts are on his web site, but I don't think the proceedings were published..at least I can't find it.) MonsterMan's description is right on the money.

I make a simple demonstration for my students who are dedicated tail riders. In a moderate slope I make a simple slow traverse with my weight way, way back on the tails. I can't make the skis turn. I then make another traverse with my weight forward, flatten the skis to the slope, and show them how the skis turn themselves due to their design. The skis also turn themselves due to the design when the skier's weight properly centered and balanced, although not as dramatically. Harald's release drills on the video (ACBAES #1 or #2 ???) clearly use this property. Balance correctly on the skis, make the correct (simple) movements, and the skis turn you.

[BobH]

Are the TFR and a brushed carve the best techniques to use on steeps?

[Icanski]

Re: TFR tips dropping into the falline vs. Mountain bike.
On the bike the front tire sliding would be sliding towards the outside of the turn, in the TFR, the tips are sliding to the inside of the turn. Sort of like a car with oversteer vs. understeer (just not breaking into a skid though ).
I don't know if that helps.
I was doing this with 7th grade kids today. Some really felt it was like a break through...it took very little work; others who were still fighting the wedge a bit had a harder time. They would start to flatten but felt a bit uneasy when the tips started to drop so the wedge "safety anchor" was thrown out. So we went back to garlands to ease them into it. That helped.
Icanski

[milesb]

Are the TFR and a brushed carve the best techniques to use on steeps?

If you can carve the top of the turn, that is the best (most fun). If not, brushed carve is good. If there is very little room and you feel confident in doing it, TFR works very well (practice it on a steep but very short pitch like you might find on the side of a trail).. Once in awhile a hop turn is useful, but try not to get dependent on it. I had to really force myself to use the PMTS movements on very steep terrain for a long time before they became my go-to movements (particularly inside foot tipping and flexing to release), and man was it worth it!

[milesb]

Serious, it works in deeper snow if the pitch is steep. Steep TFR are actually pretty easy to perform in deep snow (if you are comfortable doing them) since the skis don't accelerate much, making the fore/aft balance easier. But really, if the snow is deep, go for the full on carve, with as much early tipping and counterbalancing as you can muster up. What a feeling (Flashdance )!!

[Max_501]

As for the TFR, I understand how it works on groomed, but would you use it in heavy snow, crud, slush? I would assume that on such snow, the best thing is to tip aggressively and carve (or brush carve).

Don't confuse the TFR with a type of turn. The TFR is an exercise one does to learn how to release with both feet on the snow. The turn I use to ski cruddy snow is the BPST which can use a TFR, a OFR, or a weighted release. IOW, the release is a component of the BPST but not the turn itself.

[milesb]

Max501, the drill itself can be very useful in place of a hop turn if there are no obstacles to clear. I would encourage everyone here to use the TFR instead of a hop turn wherever you can, if only for the sake of building good habits.

[Arkady]

I am a little confused with the discussion above. I believe that Max's understanding is correct: TFR (as in ACBAES-2, p.48-55) is indeed a drill, not the entire sequence of movements leading to an actual turn in free skiing.

Referring to the book:

When the skis are pointed directly downhill into the fall line, the release is complete. Both skis should be flat on the snow

(ACBAES-2, p.55). Is it what you do in actual skiing? In BPST, do you wait on flat skis until pointing downhill?

I believe that TFR (at least, as the book describes it) is a drill - in a way, an opposite extreme to hopping edge change, which is also a drill rather than a practical way to ski according to PMTS. In high-C skiing you are supposed (am I correct?) to engage new edges way before your skis point downhill.

It seems to me that in the discussion in this thread the very term "TFR" has been used in a different meaning, and it is not clear to me, how it relates to the definitions of the drill from the book.

[milesb]

If you watch the video that comes with Expert 2, you'll see complete turns made in the TFR segment. Turns that are only slightly wider than the length of the skis.

[Arkady]

I reviewed the video, thank you for the reference. However, what I see in lthe linked turns on the video (the end of the chapter on "two-foot release") is early engagement of new edges, skis hardly stay flat for a long time. In the previous (on the video) demonstration of TFRs, skis really stay flat until pointing downhill, release is slow. I understand this difference as the difference between a drill (TFR movement, slow, until flat the skis point downhill) and actual skiing, incorporating TFR movement in a much more dynamic situation.

In the December camp, an emphasis in our group (at least as I understood it) was made on TFR, feeling this movement patiently tand slowly through flat skis to new edge engagement. But when you learn it, aren't you supposed to apply quick edge change?

[Ken]

Harald said

If both skis are flat on the snow at the same time, there is very little friction. If you stand on the center of the skis, (or slightly forward) as both skis come flat, the tips will go downhill. As the tips are headed straight downhill, apply little toe edge tipping(or before if you can).

It's not how long you hold the flat skis. It's that you actually get them flat and let them run even if just for an instant. Longer flat period for drills. Shorter flat period as needed for real skiing.

[Arkady]

Thank you, it makes perfect sense.

[rlspalding]

First set of movements: If both skis are flat on the snow at the same time, there is very little friction. If you stand on the center of the skis, (or slightly forward) as both skis come flat, the tips will go downhill. As the tips are headed straight downhill, apply little toe edge tipping(or before if you can).

Second set of movements:If you lean back, as you release, it won’t work, if you push or extend on either ski, it won’t work. If you release one ski before the other, it won't work. If you put the big toe edge in the snow, before the little toe tipping, it won’t work.

I practiced this a bunch during my recent trip to Korea (mostly because there were too many people to practice much else!

Anyways the one thing I practiced just sliding down the hill. By this I mean I stopped on a green slope (or whatever slope I was on) and I would change my edge angles from extreme to flat. when you get to flat, I found that my skis did one of three things. 1. It would turn my skis downhill, 2. I could almost slide down the hill neutral (this required a bit of concentration) and 3. It would turn my skis uphill, essentially I would start heading downhill backwards.. The difference that I noticed that created these three movements was in my fore aft balance?

Please correct me if I am wrong...but if you have shaped skis. When you flatten your skis, if you have your fore-aft balance properly and slightly weighted fore, then when you flatten your skis, they have to by physics turn down hill. Even though we say "flat skis" when you release, I think there is still a tiny bit of edge engagement or increased friction on the downhill edges of your skis(or maybe downhill sides of the skis)? so when you start sliding down the hill that edge engages ever so slightly which naturually makes your skis start heading downhill? And depending on your balance you will start heading down hill forwards or backwards.

Of course based on this theory, I dont know how a two footed release would make your skis head downhill on straight skis, I am young enough and a late starter that Ive never experienced straight skis.