Skiing (turning) at a slower speed through heavy wet snow

[Jwthe2nd]

Is this possible?
Thanks.

[jbotti]

No, you need speed. Its more dangerous to try and ski it super slow.

[Jwthe2nd]

Thanks, I suspected that.

[jbotti]

This was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn and its just not in slush, but in any more difficult conditions off piste (like crud and windbuff). Bottom line is that you have to ski all these conditions faster. And because the first turn may come with challenges, the natural mental tendency is to immediately slow everything down, which just makes every thing much more difficult. Momentum is your friend and it enables you to blast through stuff and not get bogged down in transition. And mentally it can be very challenging to ski faster when skiing slow isn't going well. The only caveat is that you must be able to ski faster and cut turns quickly at speed. In essence you need a really strong, solid "bullet proof" SRT. Without that, you are taking risks that you probably should not be taking.

[Jwthe2nd]

Thank you jbotti for the clarifcation. I have been experimenting to see how slowly I can go before getting bogged down. If the timing to get upsidedown early is successful, the turn works well. I am not trying this in ultra thick stuff, just thick enough to safely learn. One more week before Lake Louise closes. A very warm 21 degrees C today and yesterday made for some fine grained sticky slush runs.

[blackthorn]

Certainly, momentum is one's friend.
I find that starting from a standstill when one's skis are facing across the fall line that it is the first turn that is the most difficult. If this is completed successfully then things rapidly improve once some momentum is gained.
As a converted old school skier I have really tried to eliminate any up movements in these circumstances but find it difficult especially in confines spaces - rocks, narrow steep runs etc.
In these circumstances I have tried with some success, I think, to simultaneously flex at the hips and push my ski forwards using my knees, then release and topple, then do a strong pullback. My question - is this a PMTS movement? - any other suggestions?

[jbotti]

Flexing at the hips is another way of saying bending at the waist. In PMTS we want to flex at the knees and not bend at the waist. Not really sure what" pushing skis forward using my knees" means. What muscles are you using? If you are pulling your feet back and that is causing more knee flexion and that position is causing tip pressure, yes that's very PMTS.

Suggestions: flex at the knees, not at the waist and use aggressive free foot (or both feet) pullback at the top of every arc. It is a lot harder to pull ones feet back when bent over at the waist because your COM is too far forward and from this position if you pulled back to the max in range of motion you would likely fall forward over your skis. Hence its a very limiting movement (bending at the waist especially to the degree one needs to in order to get forward pressure on the tips). Extension is often a substitute for foot pullback and it creates a bad cycle of standing, bending at the waist, not being able to fully pull the feet back hence our balance is aft, even more aft coming out of the arc, hence the need to extend again as an attempt to get the weight forward, thus starting the cycle all over again.

The drill cure, is to work on short radius brushed carved turns on groomed terrain, where every release is a flex move followed immediately by foot pull back. There is only one cure for chronic extension and it is deep flexion to release every arc. Like sit down and get you knees at right angles (yes massive exaggeration of the flex move) as you release every arc and do it for 2 full ski seasons. Obviously, that's not the final product. Once one is no longer extending, moderate flexion in many arcs is all that is needed but you need to teach your body to exaggerate the movement and really know when you are flexing vs extending in every arc and this is the way to be able to tell and to retrain your movement pattern. Its much easier to learn how to flex a little less than to learn how to stop extending (or you wouldn't still be extending).

[jbotti]

On extension and eliminating it, skiing with the pole tips touching the ground (100% of the time) is also a sure fire cure. But it must be done properly. Most people think they are doing it, but at the moment of truth (when releasing the skis) the poles come off the snow momentarily and the skier often doesn't notice so they think they are doing the drill properly. And doing it this incorrect way, is really an absolute waste of time and energy. But done correctly, its a very effective drill. I never developed an engrained up move so I never had to unlearn one. But I have had some extension past the release in some of my arcs (especially on one side). The pole drill done properly really helps. For eliminating release extension, learning and engraining going lower (deep flexion to release every arc) is key.

[Jjmdane]

I would take exception to the statement that flexing at the hip is the same as bending at the waist, they are very different movements. Bending at the waist causes the back angle to move forward and down, pushing the rear back, while flexing at the hip socket gets one lower in the same relative balance position. Just stand up straight and bend at the waist and the only way to keep your butt from moving back is to use an exaggeration forward movement with your upper body. Next stand straight and sink down by flexing at the hip socket, you can sink down right over your feet, or in another application, over your skis. I use this exercise when coaching and instructing on skis, esp. in bumps and uneven terrain. Understanding the difference between the two flex points can make a lot difference for my racers and rec skiers because when you flex at the waist socket you bend your knees without disrupting your balance point.

[jbotti]

In PMTS we don't talk about hip flexing for a reason, as it a secondary movement vs a primary one. Flexing the knees is the primary movement and avoiding extension is the focus. It does not really matter what the hips are doing, if the legs are extended, its problematic in PMTS whether the hips are "flexed" or not.

I have been working with Harald for 20 years now and we have never once discussed "flexing at the hips", nor is it in any of the PMTS literature. We try to keep people from reinventing the wheel here, and our wheel does not involve hip flexing.

[blackthorn]

Thanks jbotti for your helpful comments. I am using some quadriceps contraction to produce a little knee extension. At the same time I am flexing at the hips using my other hip flexors. The combined effect is a lift in the ski tips and unweighting of the skis and my centre of mass moves down and backwards a bit. I am not using lumbar flexion ie bending forwards at the waist.
I am not wishing to go down a rabbit hole with all this and have only been trying it as a technique for the first turn from a traverse position in heavy snow.