Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby jbotti » Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:22 am

So after conferring with Harald, I was wrong about the his first point in the post. Here is an explanation from Max501:

In PMTS we want to get the inside foot/leg out of the way otherwise it will block the movement of our CoM. As we improve our ability to increase angles we usually get to a point where it feels we just can't get any closer to the snow. This is usually because we have stopped flexing the inside leg so it becomes weighted and blocks our ability to increase angles. The way to get past that point is to "give in" by flexing and pulling up the inside leg so it doesn't act as a base of support. I have a mental block that stops me when my hips are close to 12" from the snow. I can get past it by aggressively pulling my inside knee towards my chest but the risk of a nasty crash increases as the hip moves closer to the snow so I rarely play that game.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby h.harb » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:34 am

I read this passage in an email to me from John and Max501. When I read it I was sure it was something I had written explaining this over the years, as it sounds exactly like it came out of my keyboard. I've explained this use of the inside half of the body so many times this paragraph sounded like I wrote it. Well, I guess Max wrote it and I can't improve on it so it stands the test. Thanks, well done.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby enric » Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:40 am

Great responses! Thank you all very much for your help.

In relation to my earlier question 1 and your kind responses, I just found in the Forum the following gem that I believe is very helpful to further understand the move being described:
by h.harb » Tue May 26, 2009 1:54 pm

From what I can gather, this topic about flexing in the arc, that is being discussed was one I introduced that talking about using relaxing of the stance leg before the end of the arc, to increase tipping angles so that you could ski into increased counter balance. This gives you more edge grip and energy to releasing momentum. The relaxing or flexing in the arc, doesn’t release the edges in this case it's not the purpose. It's intended to actually increases ski angles by the ski momentarily being less pressured and therefore allows for more foot tipping. With this leg relaxing, flexing (I am talking about only a micro amount, and fraction of a second) foot tipping can increase ski angle, due to reduction of resistance and pressure, allowing CG also to move toward the skis, slightly.

This is a very specialized movement and can only be performed if the skier is in perfect balance and carving the skis. It is best used on ice or hard snow..

Flexing the inside leg and tipping it further can be done independently of the stance ski relaxing movement. inside leg flexing does little to enhance what I’m talking about with the stance leg relaxation, the inside leg movements ( flexing and tipping) serve to drop the hip closer to the snow.


Very clear and concise....may be it was all my mistake when I read in the previous post by HH that one of the two "give ins per turn" is performed by the inside leg and the other (like in the preflex case) by the outside leg.....may be the ir no inside leg give in then...again, this Forum is of great value, keep posting!
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby jbotti » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:18 am

Enric and anyone else, it is important not to confuse two distinct and different movements. The first is the one that you cited from Harald's post where he talks of "giving in twice per arc, one to release (outside leg) once to increase angles (inside leg)." and the response from Max is about increasing inside leg angles through the combination of progressively tipping to higher angles combined with flexing the inside leg which both increase our ROM for tipping as well as creates room for the stance leg/ski to move to significantly higher edge angles. This is what we strive for in every arc and its a mainstay of PMTS skiing.

But this is distinct from the very advanced move that I mentioned when I incorrectly interpreted Harald's comment. This move is about slightly flexing the stance leg in an arc just past the apex as a means to create significantly higher edge angles. This is a subtle and difficult move/movement that require precise timing and it happens in a very short space of time.

Again this is move that becomes relevant when someone can edge lock arc without gaining speed and without the arcs widening on moderate to moderately steep terrain. This move will enable one to do the same (carve tight arcs with speed control) as one moves to steeper terrain. The result of this when done properly and when all the other essentials are in place is an arc where the hips get very close to the snow.

It is discussed in some detail in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3713
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby enric » Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:59 am

excellent, thanks jbotti
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby Jwthe2nd » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:51 am

This move is about slightly flexing the stance leg in an arc just past the apex as a means to create significantly higher edge angles. This is a subtle and difficult move/movement that require precise timing and it happens in a very short space of time.

Is the inside leg and inside foot still flexing and tipping at the same time that the slight flexing of the stance leg is occurring?
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby jbotti » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:22 am

Yes. We are always tipping to progressively higher inside ski angles in every arc (that's the goal). With this in place, when we slightly flex the stance leg, we create a small release of pressure (it decreases the G force a little), which allows the inside leg to flex further and tip to a greater degree and the stance leg/ski follows.

It's probably best to say, that when tried at speed in an arc where the hips are already reasonably close to the snow, the skier has to be prepared for the hips moving even closer to the snow. This is a position of extreme vulnerability (if you lose your stance ski at this moment its going to be a very ugly wipeout) and a position that many will feel uncomfortable with.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby Jwthe2nd » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:46 am

Thanks very much for the confirmation. I would guess that the loss of control of the stance ski is most likely caused by insufficient flexing of the inside leg resulting in the transfer of weight to little toe edge.
In other words, the inside leg must flex more than the slight flex of the stance leg to keep control.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby jbotti » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:24 am

When I mentioned losing the stance ski, I was just referring to it slipping from it’s arc, as can and will happen at times on ice or when we get too much weight on the inside ski (not enough CB). Done properly, with appropriate levels of CB even on ice, the stance ski is likely to hold. I was just pointing out that the lower our hips go, and the closer to the snow that they get, if an accident happens from this position, odds of a smooth recovery are low and odds of a severe wipeout are high.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:17 pm

All good comments and it clears up the topic. Remember that the bottom line is to keep all movements in line with creating and keeping you in balance. Tipping the feet, and ankles is a constantly increasing activity you should have going on from the top of the arc to the bottom. Bending or reducing leg length on the inside leg needs to happen to increase angles and keep pressure off that ski. Ankle tipping of the outside foot and matching the tipping to the inside leg is an important action, but only as much as the inside ski tipping occurs. Reducing the outside leg length by only a few inches keeps allowing ankle tipping to increase. The opposite would be pressuring by extending and locking out the outside leg, which so many skiers are told to do. That approach is never going to get a tightening radius turn that offers speed control. I get asked the question all the time, how do you control speed on hard snow while carving? Now you know the answer, a decreasing radius arc, or tighten the bottom of the arc with the movements described here.
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Re: Let pressure come to you, don't create pressure.

Postby enric » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:29 am

Pure gold :mrgreen: , thanks Harald for clarifying in such great detail.
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