Knee Tipping

PMTS Forum

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby agent00F » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:44 pm

jbotti wrote:Agent00F, there is really only one question, do you want to use and produce PMTS movements? If you do this is a great place to learn and engage with others. If you are more interested in debating this is the wrong place for you and you won't last long. PMTS is not for everyone, it sounds like its not going to be for you. We are happy to have you stay, learn and improve your skiing, but we are not going down the rabbit hole of convincing someone with a TTS background why what we do here works.

It's your choice and we are happy to have you stay but also totally fine with you leaving. But we are not going into theoretical debates about technique. You can do that ad nauseum on Pugski.com So if that's what you want, head there quickly. Best.


I learned to ski from some Lito Tejada-Flores vids, and perhaps not coincidentally Harald Harb was actually the demonstrator later on in one series. My big breakthrough for carving came about from primarily balancing on and balancing movements against on the outside edge, which is largely how I currently ski, and PMTS seemed like a natural progression for better fore/aft since it clearly gets efficient ski tip vs tail balance distribution. For that specifically, instead of "pull back" I do more of a "thrust back" to maintain/control consistent pressure against the snow, so I do apologize for not committing to exact gospel. This tipping using feet/ankle matter is certainly interesting, since I use more of the natural balance (as you walk etc) to work the angles. Maybe before the season starts in addition to the PMTS exercises I'll test out walking on the edges of the feet to get a sense of how it affects balancing.

edit:
Honestly I don't want to come off as unappreciative. I mostly posted what I did because I believe hip flexibility is underappreciated (esp by the more talented experts here), but it was objectively a barrier to creating higher angles. Even the "easy" demos Harald does on video has high angulation on those joints than what most folks can reasonably do.
agent00F
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:59 pm

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby Max_501 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:21 pm

agent00F wrote: I mostly posted what I did because I believe hip flexibility is underappreciated (esp by the more talented experts here), but it was objectively a barrier to creating higher angles.


Can you elaborate on the bold section? Many here have helped others develop the hip flexibility needed for expert skiing. Heluvaskier would be a great example of an expert level student that made an improvement in his skiing after working on hip flexibility that jbotti and I demonstrated.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4089
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby ToddW » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:45 pm

Agent00F,

There’s actually tons written on the forum about hip use, hip flexibility, and especially the connection with relaxation.

As Max noted, this was a big focus for heluva a few years ago, and the difference in his videos was beyond striking.

At camps in person, sometimes a Harald will start with the upper body if strong rotation will get in the way of lower body focus for an individual skier (this was true of several forum members). But the general progression is what’s laid out in book 1 — tipping first. In one of his videos, Harald likens tipping to an engine, and upper body movements that involve the hip to a turbocharger. The point being that a kickass turbocharger is no use without a decent engine, but an engine by itself is already pretty useful. Of course, we pretty much all want that turbocharger one day, but first things first.

I’m just one data point, but when I ski with Harald now, almost all of the focus is on the upper body (bigger range of movement, greater relaxation, more precise timing) with the remainder of his coaching being on flexing or fore-aft depending on how I’m skiing that day. 14 years ago, when I was told “tip and tip and tippy tip; tip and tip some more” tipping was almost the entire focus. Focus number 2 was to counteract “1 centimeter” :oops: Lucky for me, video camera tapes were valuable back in those days, so all video evidence was quickly overwritten.
.
ToddW
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: live: Westchester (NY) / ski: Killington

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby agent00F » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:35 pm

Max_501 wrote:
agent00F wrote: I mostly posted what I did because I believe hip flexibility is underappreciated (esp by the more talented experts here), but it was objectively a barrier to creating higher angles.


Can you elaborate on the bold section? Many here have helped others develop the hip flexibility needed for expert skiing. Heluvaskier would be a great example of an expert level student that made an improvement in his skiing after working on hip flexibility that jbotti and I demonstrated.


There seems far more material for PMTS about tipping etc, but when you tip nearly as much as the PMTS demos show, the barrier becomes hip dexterity. I was literally being advised here how to tip more, when it's too much tip angle which led to the limits of the desk jockey hip.

Interestingly it was a revelation which led me to work on hip/leg/foot flexibility, and it was the question of why I couldn't finesse/control my legs the same way as the arms. This turned out to become a considerable project for body awareness, I was just touching on the hip part because it was what resolve my knee strain (from tipping more than hips were comfortable providing the angle for) and figured others are likely in the same boat. It's not so much that the femur angle hits a hard stop, but the hip muscles have a certain range they're comfortable working in, and beyond that the body starts looking for other avenues to provide the requested movement.
agent00F
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:59 pm

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby noobSkier » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:41 pm

I think it's important to note that PMTS is a movement based teaching system. So while tipping is a movement, hip flexibility (however important) is not. The essentials are high level abstractions that we can resolve in higher detail should it become necessary...this is dictated by the movement needs of the student. So for example if someone is struggling with an essential, we will look at possible causes and solutions (hip-flexibility potentially being one of them).

It's not that hip flexibility is under appreciated, it's just that (IMO) it should be talked about on a per person basis (from video or on-snow coaching).
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby jbotti » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:55 pm

agent00F wrote:
but when you tip nearly as much as the PMTS demos show, the barrier becomes hip dexterity.


I have never experienced this or seen this. Why don't you post some video of yourself skiing and show us exactly what you are talking about. You can do it here or in the MA section.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1904
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby agent00F » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:34 pm

noobSkier wrote:I think it's important to note that PMTS is a movement based teaching system. So while tipping is a movement, hip flexibility (however important) is not. The essentials are high level abstractions that we can resolve in higher detail should it become necessary...this is dictated by the movement needs of the student. So for example if someone is struggling with an essential, we will look at possible causes and solutions (hip-flexibility potentially being one of them).

It's not that hip flexibility is under appreciated, it's just that (IMO) it should be talked about on a per person basis (from video or on-snow coaching).


Yes I get that in the PMTS system, the movements conceptually start with the tipping or at least awareness of the sensations of tipping and that invokes the kinetic chain upward. Really not unlike planting the foot first while walking. I'm simply pointing out that to get the advertised angles, the joint which will run into difficulty is the hip, given most people can probably flex their knees down to 90 deg reasonably well, not so much high load pivoting/balancing movements on the hip between 45 deg level of angles along two axis + twist.

I've been doing quite a bit of yoga, and just to stand on solid ground w/ a foot while pivoting the body above is considered advanced which takes a while to work up to for average folk, nevermind while balancing on a ski moving at some pace (+ on top of whatever ankle movement being touted). Now it's possible to get by without because again humans have some natural balancing skill and the range of movement isn't a hard stop, just greatly diminished agility/dexterity, but it's difficult to overestimate the difference in control for the simple aforementioned exercise.

jbotti wrote:
agent00F wrote:
but when you tip nearly as much as the PMTS demos show, the barrier becomes hip dexterity.


I have never experienced this or seen this. Why don't you post some video of yourself skiing and show us exactly what you are talking about. You can do it here or in the MA section.


I don't have any video of me skiing, and it's unclear what that demonstrates when there's plentiful video of high carving angles which necessarily creates high hip angles. The hip is just from geometric range of motion the most taxed joint in SL/PMTS type skiing, esp compared to the range of motion the ankles can even move in a boot.
agent00F
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:59 pm

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby jbotti » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:06 am

We are unfortunately back in the same place. Again, I will say, if you are here to learn and work on your skiing with PMTS movements, great. But that does not appear to be your aim. And again we are not going down the rabbit hole of arguing why our movements work.

And lastly you are wrong. Many skiers get big angles without any hip counter ( we call it counter acting).
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1904
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby RyanAllen » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:08 am

agent00F wrote:there's plentiful video of high carving angles which necessarily creates high hip angles.


Is this your argument, that high performance carving requires extreme hip angles? If so, you need to offer some evidence. Just restating your claim over and over, with verbosity, proves nothing. If you are doing yoga, you should understand that high carving angles come nowhere near the limit of the range of motion in the hip. Try this, sit in the lotus pose, pigeon pose, or frog pose and experience the sensation of reaching your maximum range of motion in your hips. Now, get a skeletal model of the hips and put them in a skiing position. It will be no where close to the limit.

Try freeze framing a world cup ski racer at their maximum counterbalancing, maybe they're reaching 140 or even 130 degrees. You're suggesting its nearly like doing the splits. It isn't. Your entire premise is just wrong.
User avatar
RyanAllen
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 am
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Re: Knee Tipping

Postby Max_501 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:20 pm

This forum is not for debating ski related topics. There are plenty of other places for that activity. As a reminder read these:

Max_501 wrote:The following post is for DIY distance learners that are using the books, videos, and this forum as the means to learn PMTS.

Let me be clear with regards to the progression a DIY PMTS student should follow. Start with Book 1 and develop the phantom. Any suggestion that the material from Book 2 or Essentials is needed to make progress with Book 1 is incorrect. Sure, the material in those books will help refine the subject matter learned in Book 1 but working from them before one has worked through Book 1 isn't necessary nor is it likely to speed up learning the material in Book 1. That said, if you enjoy reading and watching skiing video then reading Book 2 while you work through Book 1 may be educational, but don't jump ahead and work on the drills in Book 2. I'd suggest saving Essentials until you have finished working through Book 1. If you want to speed up the learning curve then make extensive use of video. And I mean EXTENSIVE. Have someone video your drills. Ideally you'd watch your drills the minute you finished so you could make corrections as you work towards mastery of that drill. Constantly confirm that you are doing the drills correctly.

Read this post by Harald Harb written in 2004 - Book Learning

The question is why do all of the coaches here (including HH) and the very experinced PMTS students often suggest Book 1 when trying to help a new PMTS practictioner? It all starts with developing the phantom.

Once upon a time HH wrote:

The Phantom Move or Phantom Turn, for example, recruits a series of movements that consolidates an early parallel turn. The Super Phantom refines and increases versatility with higher balance requirements. As balance with PMTS movements increases, wider ranges of skiing are available to the skier. In the early stages of PMTS we clearly stand on one ski and transfer balance from one foot to the other. Tipping and tilting are the basic movements we teach in our many and varied progressions and exercises. Later as a skier refines balance through PMTS, versatility becomes more available. To gain higher levels of skiing quickly, demands you experiment with your balance. Supplemental balance activities can also shorten the learning curve.




jbotti wrote:For those that don't like "Page one Book one" for an answer, there is only one question, have you ever been on Epicski? Ask a question there and you will quickly get 25 responses most of them contradictory, and then in the same thread 5 guys will carry on an argument about who is right. We (moderators and HH) have made a very conscious decision with this site. Its designed as a forum to support the learning and advancing PMTS skier. Its not an enrollment vehicle for Harbskisystems. The HSS camps are full by September every year and even I need to get lucky if I book a lesson with Harald or Diana past August to find a date that can work.

Now back to someone that is new to PMTS. Anyone that is being honest about skiing will tell you that improving one's skiing takes work and dedication. If one wants to take the PMTS route (and no one has to as there are a zillion so called experts willing to take one's time and money to help improve your skiing) there is a very clearly outlined gameplan to build the necessary foundations for advancing and for learning and mastering PMTS movement patterns. I guess I will shock no one when I say (no repeat) that this all starts on "Page one, Book 1". Knowing that this is the case, that there is a carefully designed path for success that starts with specific movements and exercises, why would we ever tell anyone something different.

So the next and obvious question comes back to why do so many people get told book 1, page 1? And maybe this isn't so obvious to everyone, but when we see questions and or movements in video that is posted, its obvious that the most basic PMTS fundamentals are missing both from the skiing and from the knowledge base. Sending one anywhere else would be disingenuous and a disservice. What I don't think anyone sees is a skier with strong tipping skills, strong CA and flexion that is lacking CB in their skiing get told to go back to Page 1 Book 1. The truth is that most skiers just starting to work on PMTS movements, pretty much all (myself included) think (or thought) they are/were better at the movements than they are/were. Anyone that has ever been to a camp remembers their first few days working with a PMTS instructor and seeing the video that proves that they aren't doing what they thought they were doing.

Now considering the moderators and HH have been doing this all for free for many years (and no, none of us think we can add what HH does) and we have all studied intently the PMTS literature, have done the drills, have been to camps and taken private lessons and some are blue level PMTS instructors, does it come as any surprise that at times we are less than enthusiastic about explaining something that could be answered with a minimum of effort either using the search function of the forum or by actually reading the books?

We also delete posts from time to time because we made a decision many years ago that we would not have this be like Epic where in one thread you will see 15 different contradictory responses and no one can figure the correct path to advance. So yes we delete posts that give incorrect information or lead people in the wrong direction. We continue to make every attempt to keep the threads and info on this forum in alignment with helping to advance PMTS skiers at all levels.

So I guess we could say that we are sorry that we haven't found a way to make this forum more inviting to the newbie, but that wouldn't be true. We have made choices, conscious ones to try and deliver a consistent message , that involves a designed and consistent path and that requires at its core YOUR WORK AND DEDICATION! Without that its all a waste of everyone's time and energy and all of us (mods, HH, Diana) are truly interested in seeing people advance, beyond their wildest dreams!
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4089
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Previous

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests