Ski industry has no idea!

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Ski industry has no idea!

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:41 am

The ski industry has no idea what they are doing to skiers when it comes to bindings, and when it comes to heel to toe angles. And skiers have no idea what to ask for and what the different bindings will do to their skiing. Even a set up slightly off your needs will make your skiing struggle. For example, "Elan's" version of the Head Tyrolia bindings SLR, that Elan uses and they are branded as an Elan, has a 0-ramp angle. The PRD Tyrolia on a Head Super Shape Speed comes with a 6-degree ramp angle. The Super Lite Rail is made mostly for women's skis. For some women, this is an impossible fore/aft balance situation. Models of Marker have a -3mm heel to toe ramp angle, on a short boot which most women use, this set up is almost impossible to ski. This measures out to be about a 16-degree "toe high" angle. This makes no sense what-so-ever. In our alignment and skier evaluation process we try to correct or direct people toward the right set up for their personal needs. Every skier is different, every person is different. Every leg length to torso relationship requires a properly selected ramp angle. In most ski shops, you will have to ask the salesperson. I'll guarantee they will have no idea about the ramp angle of the binding. The ski industry doesn't have any of this figured out for the benefit of the consumer. Why and how do we know about these things at Harb Ski Systems? Because we ski with almost everyone we sell skis, boots, and bindings to; we see the issues on the slope, then we fix the problem. We are working on producing some videos for this topic to come out on YouTube. Look for it on my Harald Harb channel, next fall. Hopefully, through these efforts skiers can have a better idea of how to select their best set up.

The attitude of the ski industry is so antiquated for example, this is the response: "This works for our best-sponsored skiers and testers and our world cup skiers, so it has to be right for you." That is such bullshit and we prove it every day at our alignment center and in our ski camps that this way of developing product is wrong.
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Re: Ski industry has no idea!

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:34 am

Here is some discussion posted on my Facebook page.

Dave Dodge: Someone needs to publish the ramp deltas (in mm) with a conversion to ramp angle relative to boot sole length. Then info on proper screw lengths needs to be published. Then someone needs to make a full set of compatible screws in 1mm increments. Until that is done shops will either avoid the issue screw it up.
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Harald Harb
Harald Harb, To Dave Dodge problems, abound, on integrated systems like Marker or Tyrolia rails, no adjustments are available.

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Harald Harb
Even if you know the delta doesn't suit you, you can't change it. So if you are in an upright boot, (Salomon) with a toe lift, (-3 for example), you just spent $2000 and can't by a turn. It is happening out there.
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Re: Ski industry has no idea!

Postby HighAngles » Wed May 01, 2019 5:34 pm

I sincerely hope you are successful with this effort. The current industry situation truly makes no sense. I got into a bit of an argument regarding this issue on another ski forum where some posters believe that the manufacturers somehow must know what's best for us when using their particular bindings. Nothing could be farther from the truth... especially when you consider how the manufacturers change the deltas with each new model that is released. There really is no rhyme or reason to what they do when it comes to binding deltas.

My preference would be for all binding manufacturers to adopt a 0 delta (toe and heel always at the same height) and leave the fore/aft alignment to be done only via the boot setup. If this were the case today it would have saved me a whole lot of work. Not only did I have to modify many sets of bindings, I have skis with system/integrated bindings that are no longer ski-able for me (at least if I care about my fore/aft stance alignment).
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Re: Ski industry has no idea!

Postby noobSkier » Wed May 01, 2019 8:06 pm

My dream binding would have adjustable lateral canting and adjustable fore-aft. I actually tried to build a prototype of this in 2017 with a Head binding mounted to an aluminum plate, mounted on the ski at 4 anchor points for adjustability. It was a total failure! Might have worked with carbon fiber though...may give it another go someday.
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Re: Ski industry has no idea!

Postby Ken » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:23 pm

I ski my best in a binding like the Head PRX with its rather high delta. Delta = difference, i.e., the difference between the toe height and heel height on the binding. With my long, 325 mm, boot sole, that's a big but not huge delta angle. Keep in mind that the delta height, delta angle, and boot sole length work together. Shorter soles with the same delta height will be a bigger delta angle. We all want the delta angle that works best for ourselves.

I put a set of Tyrolia Attack13 demo bindings on some new skis. I just felt like my heels were low. No problem. Ebay sells plexiglass in various thicknesses and sizes & colors. 1/8" is about 3 mm. Tognar.com sells longer binding screws. With the 2 piece rails of these bindings it was easy to make 3 mm shims for the heels. I felt balanced again. I skied better. It's a problem with binding with a full length rail. It's a big problem no retail purchaser should have to endure, to buy skis & bindings and boots equal to a month or two of mortgage payments and the set up is guaranteed to make everything worse.

I think KneeBinding is the only binding maker with adjustable delta. A friend with fragile knees is skiing well with his new version KneeBindings set up the way that works best for him. I don't think he's exercised the lateral heel release yet...we'll see how that works out for him.


I just took some measurements on skis I really ski well. The difference in toe & heel height is 6 mm. The distance between the toe & heel contact points the sole bears on is 280 mm (325 boot sole length). That gives a delta angle of 1.23°
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