Brushed carves and getting forward

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Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby noobSkier » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:58 pm

In a brushed carve, the tail of the ski follows the tip with some displacement. Since the tip is tracing the arc and the tail is brushing, is it even physically possible to start a brushed carve with no tip pressure on the ski?

I've observed that when I'm practicing edge-locked carves, if forced, I can start the next turn from the backseat and I'm usually ok as long as I can pull my feet back enough in the next transition; the ski can still arc. Brushed carves, different story. When I try to start a brushed carve from the backseat, the arc just completely collapses; the tips catch the snow and the tails break away. Worst of all, when it happens, it screws with my balance so much that all my following turns are garbage.

An example of this is the video that I just posted in my MA thread (https://youtu.be/ryEEU6Wcg-c). It starts on my 9th turn (9seconds). I don't know if the turns before that are technically sound, but I can at least say that the tails are following the tips and the stance ski isn't getting pushed around by the crud. The second I got lazy with my foot pullback, everything including the rest of my turns were spoiled. I have difficulty adjusting my fore-aft when the pitch changes; around the 9 second mark the hill starts to flatten out.

So, theoretically, is it even physically possible to start a brushed carve from the backseat (not that anyone should)? Is that one of the reasons why its so elusive?
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby DougD » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:44 pm

noobSkier wrote:In a brushed carve, the tail of the ski follows the tip with some displacement. Since the tip is tracing the arc and the tail is brushing...

Where did you get this idea?
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby noobSkier » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:59 pm

DougD wrote:
noobSkier wrote:In a brushed carve, the tail of the ski follows the tip with some displacement. Since the tip is tracing the arc and the tail is brushing...

Where did you get this idea?


Err...I recall reading it somewhere on the forum but I can't find the exact post. Either way, feel free to correct me.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby Max_501 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:37 pm

Brushed carving is covered here.

If a skier is on the tails at the start of the new turn something needs to happen to get the skier back into a balanced position. Expert skiers are likely to address this issue with a very strong pullback move. Others are likely to resort to a pivot.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby DougD » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:56 pm

Read the posts by SkierSynergy and HH in the thread Max_501 linked. No need for us students to analyze beyond what a black level coach and HH have provided.

As noted there, a good way to learn a reliable brushed carve is to practice linking short-radius OFRs and TFRs at VERY slow speeds (much slower than in your video). It's very helpful to mix them at random.

The TFR from a standstill is a critical test. Momentum conceals balancing, tipping and countering errors that will undo a brushed carve... glacially slow is the best way to develop the subtle control that's needed. It's a bear to master. It took me 20+ days... 5-6 hours/day... focussed drills... on very easy terrain... at very slow speeds.

It's worth it. Once it happens, you'll have the basics of a reliable brushed carve... and a well deserved feeling if accomplishment, because not one skier in a thousand has developed the movement skills required.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby noobSkier » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:00 am

DougD wrote:Read the posts by SkierSynergy and HH in the thread Max_501 linked. No need for us students to analyze beyond what a black level coach and HH have provided.

As noted there, a good way to learn a reliable brushed carve is to practice linking short-radius OFRs and TFRs at VERY slow speeds (much slower than in your video). It's very helpful to mix them at random.

The TFR from a standstill is a critical test. Momentum conceals balancing, tipping and countering errors that will undo a brushed carve... glacially slow is the best way to develop the subtle control that's needed. It's a bear to master. It took me 20+ days... 5-6 hours/day... focussed drills... on very easy terrain... at very slow speeds.

It's worth it. Once it happens, you'll have the basics of a reliable brushed carve... and a well deserved feeling if accomplishment, because not one skier in a thousand has developed the movement skills required.


Yes, my question was only a curiosity, not an attempt to improve my understanding of the brushed carve. Of course I also dedicate at least half my ski day to drills like the OFR and TFR. Congrats on achieving the fabled brushed carve! Have you confirmed your feelings with video?
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby h.harb » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:15 am

The link Max provided is great; have not read this material in years. We are so far ahead of traditional ski teaching it's amazing. One sentence that stood out to me immediately was this: "The difference here is that Brushing, isn't the same as skidding, because it is not created by rotary movements; therefore it is much easier to control."

As far a beginning to understand your skiing, and brushed carving, you have to let go of your old skiing. Forget the speed and the quick in the falline edge changes. You have to slow down and make round turns, period, or you will never comprehend a carved, side cut, edge locked turn otherwise. ( you have to feel the whole ski going through a completed arc, so the ski is engaged from tip to tail.) Sure at first this will feel terrible, but nothing new or learned, comes from repeating the same movements. New movements are always hard to be comfortable with, even if they are done right. Another video to watch is on You Tube, my "Skiing the Steep on West Wall". That video shows slow, round, brushed turns on a very steep slope. They are not aggressive turns, but they are round, have total speed control, tipping & flexing and are technically correct.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby jbotti » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:06 pm

Pretty sure this is the video he mentions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV9SpXbpwyU
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby DougD » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:03 pm

noobSkier wrote:Yes, my question was only a curiosity, not an attempt to improve my understanding of the brushed carve. Of course I also dedicate at least half my ski day to drills like the OFR and TFR. Congrats on achieving the fabled brushed carve! Have you confirmed your feelings with video?

Excellent question!

A PMTSer with multiple camps + proven MA and Alignment skills confirmed my OFRs and TFRs early last season.

TFRs from a standing start only developed late last year... after many days of mixing releases. No video yet. That will come as soon as I get on snow.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby DougD » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:06 pm

h.harb wrote:"The difference here is that Brushing, isn't the same as skidding, because it is not created by rotary movements; therefore it is much easier to control."

... you have to let go of your old skiing. Forget the speed and the quick in the falline edge changes. You have to slow down and make round turns...

... slow, round, brushed turns on a very steep slope... are not aggressive turns, but they are round, have total speed control, tipping & flexing and are technically correct.


Nuggets of pure gold.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby skijim13 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:49 am

Doug, this year at Killington I will be bring all my video gear including my helmet cam to get good video while skiing from behind my next goal is to buy a gimbal for the helmet cam. Dave is also coming with his gear. My goal is to get good video for us to do movement analysis in the lodge and get us on the right track for camp this year. Lorie and I are going to two camps this year and expect to improve further.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby DougD » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:37 am

Gimbal for the helmet cam? That should help it CA/CB better. :mrgreen:

I hope we can make it! I have business meetings on Thurs, but we might get up there for Fri - Sun.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby h.harb » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:48 pm



This is the video link, is on the West Wall. The one John linked is a 50 degree slope off Big Sky.
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Re: Brushed carves and getting forward

Postby Max_501 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am

skijim13 wrote:Doug, this year at Killington I will be bring all my video gear including my helmet cam to get good video while skiing from behind my next goal is to buy a gimbal for the helmet cam. Dave is also coming with his gear. My goal is to get good video for us to do movement analysis in the lodge and get us on the right track for camp this year. Lorie and I are going to two camps this year and expect to improve further.


Helmet cam video has limited use for MA. Instead use a camcorder with an optical zoom and OIS. See this POST for instructions on taking good video for MA.
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